Timestamps are approximate. « Indicates a change of speaker.
00:00:00 It’s August 4th, 2021 and my name is David Knight.
00:00:02 I’m the host of the journey, the Spotlight series featuring Bill Simpich.
00:00:08 And along with my co-hosts, Casey Quinlan and Brian Edwards will be in attendance with us as well.
00:00:13 I’d like to lay down a few ground rules before we begin.
00:00:17 So that way, it’s a little different than what we had last month with Dr. John Newman.
00:00:22 This time, instead of just moderating questions for everybody, we’re actually going to leave the chat log open.
00:00:30 So if you care to share things, some people may not like that the chat log is being left open for everyone to share information.
00:00:38 But you know, we’re going to do that this time.
00:00:42 So that way, if anything’s shared in there that needs to, you know, people like to see and go back to later on, it’ll be uploaded to our website, at projectjfk.com.
00:00:54 Under the Events tab, I want to also start off with the fact that we’re going to be running this tonight in six sections.
00:01:01 Now, Bill is going to do a section and then we’re going to pause before we go on to the next section for live Q&A.
00:01:09 Actually, the whole thing will be live tonight.
00:01:12 Instead of pre-recorded, I ask and Bill also asks that you keep your questions, pinpointed to what to what he just had spoke about.
00:01:22 And let’s not get off topic, so that way we can run on our scheduled time tonight.
00:01:25 So after part one, section one, then let’s go ahead and do the questions for that.
00:01:32 And then we’ll move on to section two.
00:01:34 And I’m sure that some questions you might have, he may be covering in the next five sections and so on.
00:01:40 With that, I also would like to take a quick minute, let me do a quick screen share here.
00:01:46 We have some new events that are going to be coming up that some of you may have already seen through our website.
00:01:56 But if you go to the events tab, and you scroll past Bill, what while we’re scrolling past Bill here, real quick, Bill has some virtual handout downloads that if we were meeting in person, these would be things that you’d be able to, to be able to, you know, see and get a get a copy of.
00:02:19 But since we’re meeting virtually, there are downloads of PDFs, also his PowerPoints, I know that he won’t go into detail about every single slide that he’s got in there.
00:02:31 But this is good source material, and Bill does an excellent job of doing his research.
00:02:38 So there is a topic one through topic six.
00:02:43 And then there’s an extra PDF and extra two images that you can go in and you can download these. They are virus free.
00:02:52 You shouldn’t have any problems downloading and opening them up to on your computer.
00:02:57 I also want to speak about our next journey meeting.
00:03:03 That’s going to be Saturday, August 21st Between 1 and 3 p.m. If you would like to get tickets for that, you just come down here and click on the Eventbrite tab, and it will get you a ticket for August 21st, 2021.
00:03:15 That’s a Saturday.
00:03:15 That’s our normal journey meeting.
00:03:18 And let’s talk about our next upcoming event, which is going to be a Spotlight Series with special guest David Denton. He’s going to be speaking August 25th, 2021, from 6 to 9 pm, Central Standard or Central Daylight Time here on here on Zoom.
00:03:35 And you can get your tickets at the Eventbrite tab underneath David’s picture and if you’d like to read about David Denton and also find out what parts he’s going to be talking about, part one through four on his upcoming presentation title coup d’etats in America,
00:03:53 What do the JFK files tell us? That’s going to be again Wednesday, August 25th, 2021, from 6 to 9 p.m. So if you guys haven’t signed up for tickets yet, please do.
00:04:05 And let’s see we’re back here.
00:04:09 We’ve let a couple more people into the room.
00:04:12 Now that we’ve got that out of the way, let me give you a quick bio on Mr. Simpich.
00:04:22 Bill Simpich is a civil rights attorney in the San Francisco Bay Area.
00:04:25 His current focus is on housing cases.
00:04:27 He also writes for reader supported news.
00:04:30 He’s on the board of the Mary Farrell foundation and works to help analyze the cryptonyms and pseudonyms and post these analyses on the site.
00:04:38 He is the author of state secret and the 12 who built the Oswald legend, which can be viewed for free at the Mary Farrell Foundation.
00:04:45 He is also working with a group of attorneys who are taking action to convince the President and the national archivist to release the last of the JFK documents, to take action to look for the missing and partially withheld document s and to see if people are willing to fight for a new assassination records review board to keep the work going.
00:05:02 The attorney group is asking everyone to call the White House and tell the president to free the files in this age of social media where personal letters are largely a thing of the past phone calls, get the attention of government representatives.
00:05:15 And with that, I’d like to turn it over now to Mr. Simpich.
00:05:19 And he’s going to take over and run the run the six sections that he wants to talk about tonight.
00:05:27 go ahead and take it away.
00:05:29« Thank you, David.
00:05:30 And good afternoon.
00:05:30 Good evening.
00:05:33 to you all, I want to start with kind of explaining why I set this up with six sections.
00:05:42 To make it simple, I wanted to make it bite size so people could come and go, these will be recorded.
00:05:47 But I want to keep it fun.
00:05:50 I want to keep it light.
00:05:52 And I definitely encourage a lot of good questions both on the chat log.
00:05:56 And during the break sessions.
00:05:58 For me, my attention span is limited, my time is limited.
00:06:03 But I love this stuff.
00:06:03 And I know you guys do too.
00:06:05 So I want to try to do this on a kind of a light and lively level.
00:06:09 I was always really kind of drawn to why Oswald was impersonated.
00:06:15 That was even more important to me to try to than trying to solve the assassination or anything like that, I find that when you focus on a particular subject, you’ll learn a lot more if you kind of, don’t try to go for your goal, which would be you know, some kind of historical solution, which I think is within our reach.
00:06:34 Now, in doing this, I want to ask you all to either turn to the first item in the topics.
00:06:46 That’s basically the preface to my book.
00:06:50 And the Preface.
00:06:51 I’m gonna dip into the preface a little bit.
00:06:54 But first, I’m gonna read something else from the last section of the book.
00:06:57 And you could follow along there if you wanted to. It’s called only justice will stop a curse. If you’re on Mary Farrell, you can do it that way.
00:07:05 But again, I didn’t want to try to solve the assassination.
00:07:09 I wanted.
00:07:09 I wrote this book to figure out why Oswald was impersonated and whether he was. I always thought studying the cover-up would be a good idea.
00:07:18 And this is the hidey hole that led me into it.
00:07:23 I did do the cover-up in chapter six.
00:07:25 But the impersonation question is so interesting to me.
00:07:29 I learned a few things along the way I didn’t expect and that what goes into not just the impersonation but the wiretapping. I started off studying political prisoner cases and lynching cases.
00:07:45 You know, I’m an attorney.
00:07:45 I’m a political activist, and the NSA you know, really hit my eyes in the 80s when James Bamford wrote his book. I finally got around to reading another book about the British counterpart called GCHQ by A guy Richard Aldrich. Aldrich is humbling meditation, if you will, on the importance of signals intelligence.
00:08:07 It made me think about the NSA’s history from its inception after World War II to the drama in Mexico City in 63.
00:08:14 And then to Obama’s January 2014 speech, which is hyperlinked in that section, announcing a new presidential directive for signals intelligence, which you don’t read about in the newspaper much.
00:08:28 Why is that? It’s just too sensitive.
00:08:30 And the reason why. Here’s Aldrich. The astounding achievement of signals intelligence allowed allied prime ministers and presidents to see into the minds of their axis enemies.
00:08:42 However, shortly after VJ day, something rather odd happens.
00:08:47 In the words of Christopher Andrew, the world’s leading historian in intelligence, I wouldn’t agree with that.
00:08:54 We are confronted with the sudden disappearance of signals intelligence from the historical landscape.
00:09:00 And again, signals intelligence is listening to the other guy signals right.
00:09:04 When this left the history books, Andrew says it’s an extraordinary omission which seriously distorted the study of the Cold War.
00:09:12 And that I’d offer you is what we’re really doing here by studying the Kennedy case, the King case, Malcolm X. All these assassinations and other things like it. Intelligence services were at the forefront of the Cold War.
00:09:24 Yet most accounts of international relations after 1945 stubbornly refused to recognize the existence of code breakers who actually constituted the largest part of this apparatus.
00:09:38 Signals Intelligence also matters to political leaders because it allows them to hear the authentic voices of their enemies.
00:09:44 Although Winston Churchill was the most famous recipient of such material, his predecessor Neville Chamberlain, also offered some remarkable insights into the mind of Adolf Hitler.
00:09:59 In 1939, shortly after the Munich appeasement, Chamberlain was given an intelligence report which announced that Hitler habitually referred to him, Churchill, in private as das alter Arschloch, or the old are hole. Understandably, the revelation had a profound effect on Chamberlain. I missed folks, it was about Chamberlain,
00:10:21 not Churchill.
00:10:23 With the onset of the Cold War SIGINT as it had become known, signals intelligence, became equally important for a dangerous new area of nuclear confrontation, atomic weapons and equivalent breakthroughs in bio and chemical warfare, together with ballistic rockets such as v2, against which there was no defense were the new currency of conflict.
00:10:46 The precarious world of early warning deterrence and targeting had arrived. Military chiefs demanded better intelligence and concluded the Global SIGINT coverage was indispensable to the Western Allies.
00:11:01 And this is the story of Mexico cities, for and the people in it, like Winn Scott, Anne Goodpasture, David Phillips, all of them. And why is SIGINT so important, apart from the wiretapping? It’s also important if you want to protect the physical security of your leaders, okay? If you want to avoid horrors, such as a loss of presidential protection, or first strike nuclear attack, or you know, the other side, knowing what you’re saying to your wife, when you’re in bed at night, or your closest advisors in your office, each side felt that they had to have better SIGINT than anyone else.
00:11:36 SIGINT is crucial, if you hope to protect the physical security of your leaders, with organizations such as the Secret Service. Any serious discussion about SIGINT like the Kennedy assassination, and other assassinations like it, are already pretty much off limits to the media, because it’s a matter of national security.
00:11:58 And that’s the world I’m suggesting that we are in, whether we think about it that way or not.
00:12:05 NSA work right goes right into the off-limits world of SIGINT What’s the Mexico City Station doing? They’re doing the NSA’s work for them largely on the ground. Because the NSA was a new agency and didn’t have the skill set of breaking into offices the way people like Bill Harvey and the second story men did. Wiretappings fine
as a local affair when discussing crime or graft, but it’s not a topic for general conversation in national security circles. In 1963, what would have happened if the world saw the extent of our peeking into Mexico? They would have learned about us monitoring of the phones and teletaps used by foreign businesses, governments and individuals.
00:12:50 Is it any wonder the JFK assassination, for among other reasons, has been such a taboo subject among policymakers.
00:12:58 The principal author of the Warren report was a guy named Alfred wrote Goldberg.
00:13:04 And he said that when Warren said some secrets would only be revealed not in your lifetime, Warren was making a precise reference to the NSA. And the need for better SIGINT and need to conceal it is why Lee Oswald keeps story keeps coming back to Mexico City.
00:13:21 And Mexico City keeps leading about discussions about wiretapping and efforts to learn more about it.
00:13:26 Something we had to keep completely secret in 1963. As Snowden knew all too well,
00:13:31 a serious discussion about this type of thing is not permitted in any culture.
00:13:37 It’s like an unveiling of the Holy of Holies.
00:13:39 There’s a 2012 memo on SIGINT that refers to the pre-Snowden era as the Golden Age, and that was before Snowden came out.
00:13:47 Mexico City was a perfect place to plant evidence right in the midst of wiretaps and the photo surveillance of the Soviets and the Cubans.
00:13:56 This would ensure because of the Oswald history and the fact that he was chosen as a patsy here, that any serious investigation, of the JFK killing would never happen.
00:14:06 Now, one or two final things here.
00:14:12 Do I have about five more minutes on this section?
« Yeah, go ahead, Bill.
00:14:19« Okay.
00:14:19 So what I want to do now is, I want to turn back to the preface of the book.
00:14:28 And the reason I bring it up is because the whole book is really written about four key people, Bill Harvey, and Anne Goodpasture, who did her best to safeguard the secrets,
00:14:47 and certainly David Morales, who was a triple threat, hit man, paramilitary trainer, and counterintelligence chief who I think among others may have gotten the last laugh at all.
00:15:01 And of course, Jim Angleton, the guy who was so eager to beat back, the Soviets that he whipped up a wave of paranoia that eventually tore the agency in two.
00:15:10 And I focus on these officers because I’ve never been able to get over the tail of the tapes.
00:15:16 I think they’re right in the middle of the story.
00:15:18 The CIA said the tapes of the Mexico City wiretaps were destroyed by the time of the assassination, but two Warren Commission staffers,
00:15:26 David Slauson, Bill Coleman, admitted that they listened to wiretap tapes with Oswald’s voice, supposedly on them, that were played for him in the months after the assassination by Winn Scott himself. And then Hoover, of course, told President Johnson that his agents listened to the tapes after the assassination.
00:15:46 And it wasn’t Oswald’s voice.
00:15:48 And you can click the link and see that discussion.
00:15:51 Why would such an incredible lie be told about these tapes, no longer existing by the time of the assassination? If it wasn’t Oswald’s voice, who whose voice was it? Was Oswald seriously seeking visas to the USSR in Cuba? Or did he have another agenda? I think he did.
00:16:10 I think his agenda was to get turned down.
00:16:12 Did Oswald even go to Mexico City?
00:16:16 Who saw him there? Can they be trusted? For me, all these questions boiled down to one question: did Oswald visit the Cuban consulate on September 28th or not.
00:16:27 Once I was satisfied, the answer to that question was no,
00:16:31 it led me to a prolonged question of an exploration about why someone would impersonate Oswald.
00:16:36 I came to the conclusion that the September 27th account, his first full day in Mexico City, whoever he was, was essentially accurate.
00:16:47 He goes to the Soviet consulate a couple times, the Cuban consulate three times.
00:16:51 The Soviet officers made it clear to Oswald they would not change their earlier decision to refuse any attempt to speed up his visa.
00:16:59 And he knew how to do it right because he had gotten a sped-up visa three four years earlier to the Soviet Union.
00:17:04 This time he did it wrong.
00:17:06 He should have turned to the Communist Party in the US or Cuba and they could have got him in.
00:17:12 He chose not to do that.
00:17:14 The Cubans had firmly closed the door on him the previous day on the 27th. So the purpose of his visit to get instant visas appeared to be at the end.
00:17:25 Here’s where the impersonation for me really seems to begin, an impersonation we can prove.
00:17:31 It’s with her Duran, Sylvia Duran, the Secretary of the Cuban consulate made a phone call from the Cuban consulate in the Soviet consulate where she puts Oswald on the line and he chats with the Soviet officer.
00:17:45 And his English Spanish isn’t very good.
00:17:47 Even his English isn’t very good.
00:17:49 Duran testified later to the HSCA and was adamant Oswald did not visit the Cuban consulate that day, nor did he make any such call.
00:18:00 I conclude she’s telling the truth.
00:18:01 She’s not a spook.
00:18:03 She’s a truth teller.
00:18:03 Where did that lead me? And I decided that best way to analyze this story was to approach it as if I was a competent, not a CIA officer.
00:18:11 I find out someone’s impersonated an American on the line that I’m tapping.
00:18:17 We don’t you know, our taps are supposed to be super-secret.
00:18:21 I thought our taps were secure.
00:18:23 And that political adversaries didn’t know about it.
00:18:27 I would assume the officer would be shaken by the belief that someone was trying to spoof the wiretap operation with contrived information.
00:18:35 And I would assume that the officer, Anne Goodpasture would report this to Winn Scott and come up with a plan on how to respond.
00:18:42 Once I came to that point, in my thinking, the memos that were written to Oswald in early October 63 made sense for the first time. I couldn’t understand why a description of Oswald as a mystery man who had visited the Soviet consulate was provided to CIA headquarters.
00:18:59 They’d been following Oswald for four years.
00:19:01 And then why it turns out that Mexico City has a date wrong for the mystery man’s visit.
00:19:08 How can you get the date wrong? And then Angleton’s people, Ann Egerter in particular, a key aid, writes two memos the same day, October 10th. They’re right there in the text of preface 2 and you can click on them.
00:19:26 And one of these memos, says that Oswald’s 35 years old with an athletic build.
00:19:31 And then the other one says that he’s 5 foot 10 and 165 pounds, and neither description’s right.
00:19:38 He’s about 24 years old.
00:19:40 He’s slightly built he generally weighs about 140. And One of these memos goes to all the top brass in FBI, ONI and State Department. The other goes down below.
00:19:51 And it’s like they’re meant to clash.
00:19:53 And this is a traditional way, you know to put items into a intelligence agency, you know, kind of like with a fire hose.
00:20:10 And then you see who’s got the wrong information, the information they shouldn’t have who’s not going through channels, and then you might find out who the Mole is within your midst.
00:20:17 In any case, that’s my thinking about what was going on here what and how Oswald was being used, wittingly or unwittingly.
00:20:28 And the kicker about this is the 5 foot 10, 165 description is provided by an unknown witness in Dealey Plaza just minutes after the shooting, and it’s given by an officer, who I think, is one of the bad apples in this a guy named Herb Sawyer.
00:20:44 I don’t believe what Sawyer’s saying for a minute. The witness is able to describe according to Sawyer, and whose name Sawyer didn’t get, and whose description he didn’t get.
00:20:54 And neither could the witness. Witness goes I can tell his height and weight from a sixth-floor window, but I can’t describe his clothing.
00:21:01 And the witness, of course, disappears and remains unidentified.
00:21:04 So something’s really wrong with all this. I. Think that this whole thing was done to create a paper trail
00:21:12 so the CIA and the FBI would be totally compromised on November 22nd and weren’t about to release this information to the American people.
00:21:22 Not after a horror like this, where the President had been killed, and then the Dallas Police had lost their man.
00:21:27 I don’t think so.
00:21:30 So again, the reason I included all these handouts was so you could click these documents and have them for yourself.
00:21:38 And I’m gonna make this, say this again and again, during this presentation, I really hope that we start with, especially in Project JFK, which is such an incredible resource, sharing chronologies, sharing PowerPoints, sharing all this material and breaking down into small groups and answering some really important questions. I want to before the next session begins,
00:22:10 I just wanted to give you a profile of the next section I’m going to get into, my other book, which I got some pretty hot documents showing communications between Allen Dulles and Ruth Paine in the days after the assassination and specifically around the Paine family.
00:22:29 And Mark lane, and Marina, people like that.
00:22:33 So I want to focus more on hot documents.
00:22:36 But I wanted you to understand how I got into this hot documents hunt, if you will.
00:22:41 And the third section,
00:22:43 this is where I’m really pretty fired up.
00:22:48 I want to start with the crypts and pseudos.
00:22:50 But then I want to move directly into the shooting of Oswald, which I think is actually one of the most powerful ways to investigate this case, because we haven’t done enough of that type of investigation about what happened that day.
00:23:07 And I think if we look at it really carefully, we’ll have some real powerful tells about who was trying to get Oswald killed.
00:23:16 So the operation didn’t get broken up.
00:23:18 So that’s my first section.
00:23:19 Thank you.
00:23:19« Okay, everybody.
00:23:23 Well, Bill, thank you for that first section.
00:23:25 Like I say, we’re going to open this up now for questions.
00:23:30 And of course, what Bill was describing of the virtual handouts. Again, you can find those on the website at projectjfk.com under the Events tab, and you can actually pull them up and have kind of a split screen of the PowerPoint or the handout along with the Zoom meeting if you’d like or if you’re running two screens.
00:23:49 And I’m sure Bill if he wants to, you know, share his screen.
00:23:54 And that way he can kind of point out some stuff to us.
00:23:58 So with that, I ask that if you have questions, please keep them to the point of the section that Bill just spoke about.
00:24:05 Unmute yourself.
00:24:06 Ask your question.
00:24:08 Please keep it on point.
00:24:10 And when you’re done, asking your question, put your microphone back on mute, and we’ll move on to the next question.
00:24:16 So does anybody have any questions on section one for Mr. Simpich?
« I have a question.
00:24:24 Patrick McCarthy.
00:24:27« Go ahead, Patrick.
00:24:27« Would Bill agree that since the destruction of the Oswald note was disclosed in 1975, that events surrounding the communications between CIA headquarters and Mexico City about Oswald’s visit including the two conflicting cables are them absolutely most significant disclosures that have come out?
« Hey, Patrick, I would absolutely agree with that.
00:25:01 I’m hoping to touch on that more a little bit later.
00:25:03 But to your question, I think that the whole business about Oswald passing a note to Hosty is just so powerful regarding the notion that they would have, of course, any kind of relationship with this man, even a hostile relationship.
00:25:24 And Patrick and I have talked a lot about in particular the elevator ride, as Patrick likes to call it, between Hosty and Jack Revill who was the head of the red squad, the head of that aspect of Dallas intelligence a couple hours after the assassination and Revill, was horrified to know that Hosty knew about Oswald and you know, claimed, at least that he didn’t know and the tension there is palpable.
00:26:01« Thank you.
00:26:07« Thank you.
00:26:08« All right, thank you for that question.
00:26:10 Patrick.
00:26:10 Does anybody else have a question for Mr. Simpich?
00:26:12 Please unmute your microphone and then ask your question.
00:26:18« Hey, Dave.
« Go ahead Russell.
00:26:22« It’s slightly on the topic did Hosty rush into the basement and say we knew Oswald was in town.
00:26:34 He was a communist and we knew we could kill the president.
00:26:38 We never dreamed we would do it.
00:26:40 Do you think that’s a yes or no?
« That’s such a good question.
00:26:43 Every year I give you a different answer on that.
00:26:45 I think this year my answer would be that I do think that Hosty knew he was a communist.
00:27:00 Whether he said it to Jack in that moment.
00:27:02 I used to think that Jack was a liar.
00:27:04 Now I think that Hosty was a liar for a variety of reasons.
00:27:09 And one of them is that Hosty was, and I’m gonna talk about this later today, was among his informants was the head of the Communist Party in Dallas, a guy named Bill Lowery who he paid $200 a month.
00:27:26 And I think the whole yarn, about Oswald getting paid $200 a month was made up so that they could kind of clear the air and try to kill the notion that Oswald was an informant by spreading what was observed demonstrably a fake story.
00:27:46 And they didn’t want to get into the discussion about Hosty working with the Communist Party informants in Dallas, which is a big deal to me, and I want to talk about that later.
00:27:58 So I think Hosty was a liar.
« All right. Thank you for that question, Russell, who would be our next person that would like to ask a question?
« Just a quick question for Bill.
00:28:18 What do you make of the descriptions of the embassy personnel both in the Cuban embassy and the Russian Embassy in Mexico City describing Oswald and the descriptions matching some of the characteristics that we associate with the Oswald from Dealey Plaza and November 22nd?
« That’s another great question.
00:28:39 I’ve gone back and forth on this one. I’m still spinning like a top. Here’s my thinking.
00:28:48 It looks like Duran thought that she saw the real Oswald and when Tony Summers showed her the pictures, you know, 20 years later, what Oswald really looked like and all that, she wasn’t so sure.
00:29:06 Mr. Azcue, her boss, was convinced that it wasn’t the real Oswald. He was convinced he was a shorter man, you know, with a ruddier face and this and that.
00:29:20 And then, you know, there’s yet another piece to all this, which I do touch on in State Secret, which is there actually was a blonde guy who borrowed Sylvia Duran’s car and had kind of a florid face, you know, and his name was Ernesto Miller, I believe.
00:29:41 And he used to borrow her car and he went to the Embassy of all places on the 26th or seventh, and not the consulate, and his picture did get taken.
00:29:54 And for years, I thought he might have been the fake Oswald. I think that that story is just a hall of mirrors type story.
00:30:03 I’m unconvinced they ever got any photos of Oswald. If you notice, the way the CIA and the FBI often do things, they’ll tell you, we found it.
00:30:13 Oh, no, we didn’t find it.
00:30:13 And then you get to guess which one. And, you know, David Phillips was famous at one big event saying you know, we may find, I think we’re gonna find out that Oswald was never in Mexico City.
00:30:29 And then of course, officially, they say he was. This is a way to cover a good operation, you know, bodyguard of lies.
00:30:35 So for me, the jury’s still out.
00:30:37 The Russian officers, I frankly, I’m not sure I believe them because they needed money in the 90s after the Soviet Union cratered.
00:30:47 And I think it was to their advantage to curry to the official line and make some money, which they did.
00:30:52 So that’s my two cents.
00:30:54 I’m not sure.
00:30:54« All right.
00:30:58 Well, thank you for that question.
00:31:00 And answer.
00:31:00 I also just want to point out to everybody that the chat log is open live and of course, it will be posted on the replay on our website.
00:31:08 So there are some great links being shared and comments.
00:31:12 I think we’re going to take one more question Bill.
00:31:15 And then we’re going to move on to section two.
00:31:16 So we try to stay on time.
00:31:18 Anybody else have another question? If not, we’ll move on to section two.
00:31:26 And we can always take a few questions at the end in case somebody maybe thinks of something that they didn’t want to ask earlier on.
00:31:33« So I recall, if I could ask a question, Kit Burns, just a quick one, I put in the chat.
00:31:41 It’s my recollection
00:31:43 that Hosty note. Hosty had stopped by to see Oswald about two weeks before the assassination.
00:31:50 And Oswald wasn’t there but Marina was there.
00:31:52 What else do we know about that? That’s what generated his notice I recall? Or do we know anymore?
« We know, we know a fair amount I will try to talk about that in the later section about what I call the appropriate Action Memo.
00:32:11 It’s very interesting to me that whole sequence.
00:32:14 Even Ruth Paine initially was telling people that Oswald had visited Hosty and then she was told by Bart Odom, you know, another one of the guys at the office:
00:32:27 No, that never happened.
00:32:27 And Odom is one of the great liars in this case, as far as I’m concerned. Then. Of course, it came out 10 12 years later, that it did happen.
00:32:35 And so it’s another example of the bodyguard of lies to me.
00:32:41 So I will talk a little bit more about that.
00:32:43 Hopefully, if not, please email me and I’m glad to field questions.
when we’re done by email.
00:32:47« Okay, well, I think with that, let’s go ahead and move on to section two, Bill.
00:32:52« Thank you.
00:32:55 And again, I want to keep us on time.
00:32:57 So would you tell me when 15 minutes has elapsed? You know, so when I got five minutes to go, so I can wrap it up quick?
« Yeah, absolutely, Bill.
00:33:03« Thank you.
00:33:03 Okay, so, what I’d like people to do is, I’d like to turn to the handout for topic two. Because there’s a couple things these are the show and tell kind of things you know, where you can use your own eyes and go Oh, my God, look at that.
00:33:18« Want to go ahead share that screen Bill.
00:33:24« I am a little rusty.
00:33:24 at screen sharing
« Let me share it for you.
00:33:30« Thank you.
00:33:31« Okay, hold on
« So, I’m gonna start while David is setting up the screen share. And David, tell me when you got it up there.
00:33:56« I’ve got it up there.
00:33:58« Can you see it?
« Yeah, I can see it.
00:34:00 Okay.
00:34:00 So the envelopes…
00:34:09 the envelopes and text I’ve placed up there is for a reason.
00:34:15 About six months after Oswald defected.
00:34:22 And this was a story I really didn’t understand
00:34:25 well, until a couple years ago.
00:34:25 Oswald was supposed to be doing some additional duty, even though he was a reservist and because he was a reservist. And it was actually out in Glenview, Illinois Marine Corps station there. Which incidentally, and that’s it’s in the book, The 12 Who Built the Oswald Legend, which I rewrote last year, during COVID. It was a lot of fun.
00:34:48 One of the most Ultra-right outfits.
00:34:55 I mean, you know you’re not supposed to have a political military left or right, and, these folks were way over to the right.
00:35:01 They didn’t like Oswald. And my theory in the book, which I frankly just don’t have the time or energy to get into right now. I’m going to ask you to read it.
00:35:10 My theory with it, and I’ve got reasons for it is that Oswald was kind of a creature of ONI and the State Department, with the CIA kind of piggybacking on for the ride.
00:35:20 And in any case, I think part of the pushback by these Marines who I’m sure didn’t like this guy, and, you know, and they may not have been aware that they were stepping in the middle of somebody else’s operation.
00:35:37 But in any case, they sent a letter out on the 26th of April.
00:35:45 And they send it to Marguerite’s address because that’s the address that Oswald gave them. Now, look what happens here.
00:35:54 If you look on the left, you’ll see that the notice is addressed in the letter to 3613, Harley in Fort Worth.
00:36:06 But the Warren Commission noticed that the envelope was actually addressed to 3613 Hurley. Neither one of these addresses actually exist, I might add, but what was really interesting is she staying at 1410, Harley, rather 1410 Hurley and she, I don’t think she really stayed there much, because she basically used it as a mail drop.
00:36:31 And even that house as a phone drop, if you can believe it, and if you read that chapter, you’ll see that after a bunch of interviews by the Fort Worth Star Telegram reporter Kent Biffle, who’s a story in himself.
00:36:43 Another story I can tell another day.
00:36:45 The Star Telegram did a lot with Marina.
00:36:50 And then they went on to in fact, you know, this gal was the cashier over there and she helped field, again, the mail and the phone calls. Phone calls would be redirected.
00:37:06 You can see all the text with the phone company and the mail superintendent.
00:37:11 I mean, this is a big deal.
00:37:13 And the reason why they’re doing it is because, you know, this guy’s a big deal.
00:37:17 He’s a defector to the Soviet Union.
00:37:19 That’s a big deal.
00:37:20 So it’s easy to get state help when you you’ve got this kind of thing going on.
00:37:27 And it’s not high spookery. It’s kind of like just wanting to keep an eye on the guy and his family.
00:37:33 So anyway, they’re playing games.
00:37:34 This letter bounces all over the place and somehow Marguerite gets it.
00:37:39 And then she says, I want to be informed of the basis for the proceedings.
00:37:44 I want to stay the proceedings because I have no contact with him. Then she adds when after hearing from you I’ll be willing to act on his behalf.
00:37:52 Contrast all this with the envelope and the notice, the arrival notice, below.
00:38:00 It’s supposedly informing Marguerite that a certified letter is waiting for pick up at the post office.
00:38:07 And it’s addressed to Marguerite’s then current address, courtesy of the Fort Worth Star Telegram, Lee Oswald, 1410 Hurley Fort Worth.
00:38:15 Such a mail arrival notice is typically prepared by the sender.
00:38:21 The sender can write any address desired and simply stick the arrival notice in the file.
00:38:25 You can ignore the arrival notice because some marine spook prepared the arrival notice just the way he wanted it.
00:38:31 And the envelope was sent certified to the non-existent 3613 Hurley address where nobody got it.
00:38:39 And it was returned to the Marines, marked unclaimed. And as a result of this stunt, if you will.
00:38:49 And this is what as an attorney, I would call you know, you backdoor somebody with what is basically sewer service.
00:38:57 So Marguerite didn’t.
00:39:01 On one hand, what’s interesting with this, is Marguerite says, you know, after hearing from you, I’ll be willing to act on his behalf.
00:39:07 But Marguerite doesn’t get this letter. But she’s been flagged, she knows there’s a problem and she drops the ball.
00:39:13 The only follow-up she does is on June 10th. She goes, you know, tell me the basis of proceedings after hearing from you, I’ll act. But she doesn’t hear from them.
00:39:26 And she doesn’t act and they sent her a formal notice saying you know, the hearing date and all this and all that and for the reasons I’ve just illustrated, she doesn’t get it.
00:39:41 But she doesn’t follow up so she’s not entirely blameless.
00:39:46 But it’s outrageous.
00:39:48 He got backdoored. There’s a hearing he’s got no lawyer, his mother doesn’t fly to Illinois, or even get on the telephone. And so then they treat it as you know, they go, he provided no statement, refused to answer correspondence.
00:40:07 Yeah, he’s in the Soviet Union.
00:40:09 She goes, I can’t reach him.
00:40:09 So now obviously they’re not prepping him for a patsy in a future presidential murder.
00:40:16 It’s 1960.
00:40:17 Kennedy hasn’t even been elected yet.
00:40:19 But they are prepping, they are, in a sense, they’ve now put the wood on him because now he’s got an undesirable discharge.
00:40:29 When he comes home in 62, he has to lie on all of his employment forms to get any kind of job.
00:40:34 He can’t get a clearance to work in a security facility.
00:40:38 He manages to get that job at Jaggers working with, working on, army map stuff and navy stuff and Cuba stuff, because he didn’t need a clearance there.
00:40:50 But that’s a wild situation. The FBI flipped when they found out about that you always see them ignoring that in their correspondence, because that was a security sensitive facility.
00:40:59 He couldn’t work on aviation electronics in the military side, which his stepfather had basically trained him how to do. And most importantly of all, he couldn’t get decent benefits under the GI Bill.
00:41:10 And I’m on this like a siren.
00:41:16 I think this is one of the most important parts of the case.
00:41:19 I feel we’ve ignored this for way too long.
00:41:21 And I’ve tracked all the different ways where… Did you guys know for example, and it’s in this chapter three, that somebody’s calling himself Oswald, who may again, may or may not have been Oswald, showed up in Austin, right about the time he’s supposed to be on his way to Mexico City. And shows up at Selective Service Office, sees a woman named Lee Dailey And Ronnie Duggar, who you guys may remember Texas Observer reporter, still alive, real good guy writes for reader supported news, 90 years old.
00:41:58 He interviewed this lady and said, I’m convinced that she had this visit.
00:42:03 By a guy calling himself Oswald.
00:42:07 And he said, and this fella calling himself Oswald says, I just came from Connally’s office, saying I need help on my discharge.
00:42:17 And they said, Well, you know, what you ought to do is go to selective service and see if they can help you.
00:42:20 So I mean, this story just keeps going and keeps going.
00:42:25 And I think the reason why is because it was a legend, it gave him a motive.
00:42:30 That made sense, as opposed to shooting the president, which, you know, everybody agreed, he, you know, he was a kind of a liberal lefty guy and a guy who liked Jack Kennedy.
00:42:41 You know, Connolly was, if nothing else, not only a lot more conservative, but it denied him his discharge.
00:42:47 And in fact, Connolly was the guy who denied him his discharge, and I write about that in the book.
00:42:52 So in any case, it’s a wild situation.
00:42:58 With that, I’m gonna move on, in the interest of time, because there’s at least one more story I wanted to get into.
00:43:07 And that’s what I found out in the last few months, if you will, about, in particular, a document.
00:43:18 And, David, I’m going to ask you, if you could post the document.
00:43:24 It’s in the topic two, section.
00:43:30 And it’s topic two, I’ve got, let’s see here.
00:43:37 It’s, it’s the one that’s the MFF pdf.
00:43:39 I got that hold on, just a second let me share that.
If you could download that and share that that would be great.
00:43:47 Okay, now, the problem with this document is it’s very faint.
00:43:59 Okay.
00:43:59 But you can, can you take it to page two? First of all?
Yeah, yeah no, no, no.
00:44:11 page below that.
00:44:13 Before that, I should say the previous page.
00:44:15« The memorandum right there.
00:44:17« There it is right there.
00:44:18 Enclosed here with is a copy of a memorandum dated 12
00:44:22 nine or so
00:44:25 Or eight or so from Allen Dulles, former director of CIA, received from a friend, not identified, the document which was furnished to the liaison agent on 12 6 63 by James Angleton, CIA, sets forth information concerning the family of Mr. Michael Paine.
00:44:48 Now I’ll represent to you that the enclosure, you know, it’s very faint.
00:44:53 We’re not going to read the enclosure here.
00:44:55 It’s just too faint.
00:44:55 But if you go to the next page, you can see on the top of the next page that the date is December 2nd, 1963.
00:45:05 All right.
00:45:07 Now let’s see how fancy we can be here.
00:45:10 David, if you go to the outline for the August 4 presentation and if you go to down to the bottom, we didn’t… I want to ask you David, if you could click on the spotlight section, the 12 6 63 Dulles letter to Bancroft, do you see that?
« Yeah, hold on just a sec.
00:45:32« If you could post that I think people will really enjoy seeing it.
00:45:37 It’s kind of like one picture equals a thousand words.
00:45:39« Okay, and you want me to click on the 12 6 63 Dulles letter to Bancroft?
« Please that would be great.
00:45:47 The important thing about the 12/6/63 letter from Dulles to Bancroft is Dulles acknowledges getting a couple of enclosures from Bancroft and says that he is gonna provide these, this information to the Warren Commission.
00:46:18 So I’m writing a little paper on it, I’m comparing the text that we can see with other letters that Mary Bancroft has written. And if you can click right there, that’s it.
00:46:38 I can’t get into it, because …
« You can’t get into it,
00:46:43« Oh, well, another day.
« But they’ll be able to actually go back and see that.
« Yeah, you’ll be able to look at yourself.
If you go on your own.
00:46:50 I we will get it to you.
00:46:54 Let’s put it that way.
00:46:55 But the Dulles letter and the Bancroft letter are really pretty stunning.
00:47:00 And so now it’s about five, six minutes to go.
00:47:04 I want to ask you, David, if you could click the appropriate action 2020
00:47:07 now, an item at the very bottom of topic two.
00:47:16« Yeah, appropriate action.
00:47:18 Give me just quick sec.
« This is another example of where I think it’s really very helpful if we share PowerPoints with one another.
00:47:36 Because frankly, most of us don’t have time to write books or articles on these subjects.
00:47:44 And the other thing is that most of us don’t have time to read these books and articles.
00:47:50 And so if you do go to the next slide, please.
00:47:54 Slide two.
« Right there.
00:48:01« Yeah.
00:48:01 And so my point here is to highlight that Oswald was an aviation electronics operator.
00:48:12 His stepfather worked in research with Texas Electric.
00:48:14 He was seven and nine years old during this formative period.
00:48:18 His stepfather was the formative father figure in Oswald’s life.
00:48:23 Oswald threatened to provide espionage and information but there’s absolutely no proof.
00:48:29 And the military says themselves, that Oswald, there’s no proof he actually provided espionage information.
00:48:35 And furthermore, the military admits more, you know, if you read the documents carefully, they’re not really concerned about him
00:48:46 letting out espionage information, what they’re concerned about,
00:48:52 and they go back and forth about this for years about him renouncing his citizenship, the folks at ONI and then the FBI took up this call, as well said, Yeah, he did renounce His citizenship.
00:49:08 And the and the State Department was going no, actually, he did not renounce his citizenship. And they have this scrap and it creates this incredible amount of paper.
00:49:18 I mean, absolutely incredible amount of paper.
00:49:21 And I think again, I think once again his file, not even Oswald, I think is being used as a probe by counterintelligence people like Angleton to find out who inside the agency, you know, has access to information they should not have.
00:49:44 This is internal security stuff.
00:49:46 If you let a spook of the Soviet variety get inside your agency,
00:49:52 you know, your agency can be so fatally compromised, you may literally have to shut it down and start over.
00:49:58 It happens.
00:50:00 It really happens.
00:50:01 So David I wanna ask you, if you can turn almost all the way to the end.
00:50:08 If you can click through to about click to through to about number 45 or so.
00:50:12 Yeah, and then go back just about 49.
can you go back 49?
And not 57, but 49.
00:50:30« Yeah, let me I guess
« 48. That’s right okay.
« 46 48
Thank you.
00:50:40 Yeah.
00:50:40 So this is so amazing to me.
00:50:43 I’m not going to get into all the details of the Ruth Paine’s finding of the letter on her secretary, which is a draft of what Oswald sent. If you can believe it, to the Soviet consulate in Washington on or About the 9th of November, just two weeks before the assassination.
00:51:08 And what Oswald does is he sends this letter that’s got all this FBI stuff in it, all this Mexico City stuff in it, very provocative stuff, is in the letter.
00:51:20 Remember, this is a guy who denied ever going to Mexico City to Captain Fritz right? But he’s talking all about Mexico City, and how Azcue can’t be trusted, and all this. It’s a big deal letter, a lot of us have thought this letter was a phony.
00:51:38 And I’m now of the school that I think he might have actually written it.
00:51:41 And I think that he was playing a game.
00:51:43 And I think the name of his game was to, whether he’s working with the FBI or not, and I could go either way on that.
00:51:50 I think he’s trying to entice people into thinking that he’s got information of value, so that he can get his discharge upgrade.
00:51:59 I think this is his motive for writing that letter.
00:52:02 When Ruth finds the letter, she sees under the fold of the draft, not even the real letter.
00:52:10 But it’s in a way that she couldn’t miss it, it says in bold letters.
00:52:13 the FBI is not now interested in my activities. Ruth took that letter and she put it under lock and key, she goes this is a hot document.
00:52:22 Five days later, the FBI Secretary sees an unsealed letter.
00:52:27 And she sees right above the fold on the unsealed letter word something like, I don’t know if they’re the exact words, I will blow up the FBI in the Dallas Police Department.
00:52:38 Now when Jim Hosty sees the letter he says what he saw was I will take appropriate action and those words appropriate action kind of ring in my ear.
00:52:50 And the reason why is because appropriate action is checked right in the box by a man I do believe was John Connally himself right in the Warren Commission documents and you can see it in my chapter.
00:53:02 The appropriate action that he recommended was don’t change Oswald’s the undesirable just discharge. Keep it the way it is.
00:53:13 And this appropriate action, why is Jim Hosty saying appropriate action? The idea may have been in his head because he knew this history.
00:53:24 Hosty’s supervisor was asked about the letter, he goes well I saw the letter and some kind of threat was made.
00:53:33 And what’s so interesting is when on November 22nd. the people who are among the people closest to Oswald, Marguerite and Ruth both do this wild thing. Marguerite turns to the Fort Worth Star Telegram reporters and says drive me from Fort Worth to Dallas.
00:53:54 This is the day of the assassination. Take me to the FBI office, I have important information.
00:54:00 And you got to remember this woman believed, and I think not without reason
00:54:04 of course, that Oswald was, you know, was an agent of some kind. And Ruth was of the same opinion, by her own admission to the Garrison probe.
00:54:11 She said, You know, she she wouldn’t say it in 63,
00:54:16 but she said in 69. She goes I think this might be about espionage.
00:54:18 And Ruth went so far as to not even mention that she had the letter to the Dallas cops that day.
00:54:26 She waited until she saw Jim Hosty to even bring it up.
00:54:30 And then Bart Odom came back that day and got her to cough it up.
00:54:34 And that’s how we have the letter.
00:54:36 And then I found copies of the letter at Swarthmore. A lot of archives are open now.
00:54:45 The Dulles documents I got in Princeton, New Jersey, I got it.
00:54:48 The Ratcliffe had the Mary Bancroft documents.
00:54:52 You can get all these documents now for free.
00:54:54 Just go on the web, go to the archives, ask for them during COVID and they’ll just send them to you. They don’t want you in their library.
00:55:00 It’s amazing stuff.
00:55:02 And it’s an amazing story.
00:55:04 And you can read about it if you want more, but those are some of the highlights.
00:55:07 That’s it for now.
00:55:09 That’s my section two.
« All right, well, we’re at the 22 minute mark of that.
00:55:15 So good on staying on time.
00:55:15 Let’s go ahead and open back up to questions about section two.
00:55:21 So if anybody has questions, please unmute your mic and ask your question.
00:55:26 Please keep it on point to what we what we just covered.
00:55:31 And then we’ll, we’ll get done with Section Two questions then we’ll move on to section three.
00:55:36 So our first question, who wants to go? Sure.
00:55:41« Russ Baker here.
00:55:41« Hey, Bill.
00:55:41 Hey, Russ.
« I just put this into the chat.
00:55:45 You mentioned Fort Worth reporters,
00:55:48 that Marguerite asked him for a ride on 11 22. And I was curious who those were at what time that was, because I know of her asking Life magazine people for a ride into Dallas, and also the police supposedly having given her a ride into Dallas.
00:56:07« Yeah, I think you’re right.
00:56:09 I think I got that piece wrong.
00:56:09 I think it might have been Bob Schaefer, like Joe Backes says, all I can remember she got a ride from Fort Worth,
00:56:19 and it was from a reporter.
00:56:20 I couldn’t remember who it was.
00:56:20« Well, it’s very strange, because the Life people claimed that they offered to give her a ride and eventually did give her a ride.
00:56:28 But when I look into it, I see no evidence they actually did give her a ride.
00:56:32 In fact, it conflicts with everything else.
00:56:34 So it’s just another baffling piece of the whole thing.
00:56:38« Well, you know, that’s the amazing part of this story is, to me is like, if you got an operation going and you got broken parts to the operation, the best way to cover for it is to tell two or three different stories and just keep everybody guessing. That’s why I think we have so many blind spots or tender spots in this investigation.
00:56:59« Thank you.
00:57:00« Thank you, Russ.
00:57:00 That’s a good question.
00:57:01« Thank you, Russ. Who would like to ask our next question?
« I have a question, if I may.
00:57:06« Go ahead, Patrick.
00:57:08« Yeah, go, Patrick.
00:57:08« All right.
00:57:11 With regard to Oswald’s relationship with the FBI, there are certain things that are definitely known.
00:57:15 And one is, I’m going to name three things.
00:57:18 One is he asks to talk to an FBI agent when he’s arrested in Louisiana.
00:57:24 That’s pretty extraordinary.
00:57:27 Secondly, he’s delivering a note shortly before the assassination to the FBI. No matter what it says, to me that argues that he couldn’t possibly have been planning to shoot anyone, as he put it.
00:57:41 And then thirdly, it’s known that the Dallas Police persons who were present at the interrogation notice that when Hosty came into the interrogation, Oswald slammed his hand down on the table, and was hostile about Hosty being there, and they perceived him to be hostile about Hosty interrogating Oswald’s wife.
00:58:03 So it suggests to me that Oswald for some reason, felt free to walk into the FBI office within approximately 10 days to two weeks before the assassination, which is amazing.
00:58:20 And also that he was unintimidated,
00:58:22 being under this mind-boggling pressure while being interrogated to express hostility toward an FBI agent.
00:58:29 It’s inexplicable, unless, of course, he thought he had other protection from some other agency.
00:58:38 Like ONI I even if he was mistaken, and he was being misled.
00:58:40« Yeah, whether or not I think he was probably spun around the Hall of Mirrors by people saying that he was or wasn’t their guy.
00:58:49 You’re quite right about the FBI and the Quigley story in New Orleans.
00:58:51 To me that request for the FBI agent is a single most powerful indication that without needing any other evidence that he’s the source.
00:59:04 He’s not an informant by the FBI’s rules, because their rules are you got to get paid and you got to have a NIC number and all that.
00:59:13 But he’s certainly a source he’s begging to have somebody come out and you know, Quigley…
00:59:19 You notice they didn’t send DeBrueys who was the guy who really was the heavy hitter.
00:59:25 They sent Quigley who had actually gotten documents from ONI, presumably while Oswald was in the Soviet Union.
00:59:31 He knew the Oswald case.
00:59:31 And he, at the same time, he had a relationship with customs in New Orleans, I think it’s pretty well documented as a source. And of course, when Mr. Fein, he told Mr. Fein he would tell him if the Soviets tried to contact him, that makes him a potential security you know informant right then.
00:59:54 Not official informant but, potential like Jack Ruby was who went to see him eight times. And then of course, what’s kills me about all this is he sends a letter to the Soviet consulate on the 9th of November, knowing that chances are good, it’s going to get picked up by the FBI.
01:00:12 And it was, the FBI had that letter before the assassination.
01:00:18 And in the middle of this Hosty goes over and delivers a letter, gets a letter delivered to him by Oswald that Hosty describes, as you know, I may take appropriate action. Oswald wants to be seen as a player.
01:00:31 That’s where I come down on all this.
01:00:33 And you, Patrick, you nailed it with your one two three. That’s perfect.
01:00:37 He’s a friend of the FBI.
01:00:39 That’s clear.
01:00:41« Okay, well, I think we’ll move on to a, it looks like we’ve got about time for another question on section two.
01:00:49 Who would like to ask another question?
« David, this is Brooks.
« Go ahead Brooks.
« Hey Brooks.
« I wanted to pull out to like the 30,000 foot view.
01:01:03 Oswald clearly was highly capable, was recruited sent over to the Soviet Union, as a false defector, there was intelligence coming out of the Minsk factory.
01:01:14 At some point, it appears he outlived his useful purpose.
01:01:18 And he got back to the US because, married Marina had a child.
01:01:25 And I think the prevailing opinion is that they got out of there, because she perhaps was sent over here to spy. The White Russian community was very suspicious of her.
01:01:38 And so my question is, obviously, the intelligence agencies, hadn’t had no real purpose. They had to wash their hands of Oswald he had done his thing over there in the Soviet Union. They weren’t going to use them over here. The FBI picked them up. Strong indications that he actually was surveilling Marina they were very suspicious of Marina.
01:02:02 So from my perspective, it plays into no one was going to give him a lot of help.
01:02:10 Not much help with a job, no money on the side. Sorry, fella, but you’re just going to have live a very meager existence.
01:02:16 Because if your wife catches any whiff of your association, with intelligence, you’re getting special treatment, you’re getting special compensation, they basically kick them to the curb.
01:02:30 And he was pissed about it.
01:02:37 So to what extent he was working for the FBI as an informant, or just gathering up information, I think there’s a strong indication from things that I’ve read that they were very concerned about Marina.
01:02:53 And part of his duty was to keep tabs on her, I just want to get…
« Absolutely, they had a whole operation called SOBIR that was focused on Marina a lot.
01:03:06 I’ve heard tales that they were more concerned about Marina than they were about him.
01:03:12 But on the other hand, you know, he was a shiny object, in a sense, as a re-defector that made him available to be, you know, a dazzling distraction, if you will, that could be used for a variety of things.
01:03:29 And I think most powerfully, to, you know, at the end of the day, he was like the poison pill that kept the CIA and the FBI from doing a serious investigation in this case, because they didn’t want their employees to be humiliated, and lose their careers and the rest of it.
01:03:46 So I think it’s a fascinating drama.
01:03:47 And it’s, it’s an analysis that I really feel strongly about that we should be focusing on the personal relationships of these people.
01:03:58 And that’s what I hope to do in these next sections.
01:04:00 And with that, David, I’d like to ask if I can go on to section three, so we can stay on time.
01:04:06« Absolutely.
01:04:06« And what I wanted to do, David, if you could help me with this, is I’d like you to cue up both the sections for topic three and topic four.
01:04:15 Because topic three, I want to shorten to about five or ten minutes on the cryptonyms and pseudonyms, keep it pretty simple.
01:04:22 Because the Oswald, the death of Oswald story, and how we got there.
01:04:28 Before the assassination is, I think what people may get very excited about, and I think they’re going to appreciate some of the things that people have offered to me is clues as evidence.
01:04:39 So could we tee those up, topic three and topic four.
01:04:44« There’s topic three right there.
01:04:46« Great.
01:04:48 Okay.
01:04:48 Let me dive right in then because I wanted to make a pitch for people to do their own work on cryptonyms and pseudonyms and not just on The CIA people but on, you know, the codes for the FBI people, the codes for the Secret Service people, the pseudonyms for the gangsters that hang around Jack Ruby. All these items are things that we need in order to be able to read these documents more clearly.
01:05:15 We got these documents, as you know, in the 1990s.
01:05:19 And, you know, in the first 10 years, we had a handful of crypts and pseudos, up on Mary Farrell, and other sites like it.
01:05:28 And now we’ve got, you know, a couple thousand, I think, at least a thousand. Up on Mary Farrell, and we we’ve got a lot more ability to read these documents, you can literally click a link on Mary Farrell when you see one of these things and see if they’re decoded or not and go to the decoder.
01:05:50 And it just makes it a lot more pleasurable to read these documents when you know what the documents are about, because you know, the personalities and the relationships involved.
01:06:00 And I urge people to take a look at what we got up on the site.
01:06:05 We’ve got some incredibly good stuff.
01:06:06 And we’re getting more and more Oswald laden stuff you know like Lee Henry Oswald and Harvey Lee Oswald. But yeah, they’ve gotta be at least be peripherally related to the CIA investigation or
01:06:18 we can’t put them up.
01:06:18 We can’t just put up all CIA documents.
01:06:20 If they’re not, at least one of them.
01:06:24 on Mary Farrell.
01:06:26 And with that, I want to turn to a couple of more intriguing pseudonyms that came up lately.
01:06:33 And let you know where my mind is going on this, because there was some real spookery going on in November 63 in the intelligence counterintelligence game, and one of them’s about a guy named Santiago Garriga. And he was an employee at the State Department in Miami.
01:06:52 In October 63, he announced his intentions to set up a fair play for Cuba committee in Miami.
01:06:58 And this is a very big deal because generally, the Fair Play for Cuba committees were not set up in the South for a reason, security.
01:07:07 They didn’t want the Ku Klux Klan and the Birchers and the Minutemen coming to their door and blowing people away. It was very, very dangerous.
01:07:15 And VT Lee in New York wrote Oswald and said, Don’t do it, Oswald did it anyway.
01:07:21 To me, that’s a very, very big deal that Garriga said he was going to set this up.
01:07:27 And then what happens next is that on November 21st, 1963, you see a CIA memo, claiming that Garriga was being hunted by the Cuban intelligence service, which I think is part of a spy versus spy versus spy counter intelligence cluster, you know what, you know equivalent of Mad Magazine, but a lot more serious.
01:07:51 It started back in February 63.
01:07:53 If you remember, Sourwine from the Eastland Committee, which was a McCarthyite type committee.
01:08:00 They got VT Lee right in front of them.
01:08:03 They said, you know, Santiago Garriga, he’s in Miami, he’s selling fake Cuban passports.
01:08:08 That’s a big deal.
01:08:11 Remember, he’s an employee for the State Department in Miami.
01:08:16 And not just any old office.
01:08:16 It’s the coordinator for Cuban affairs.
01:08:19 They’re basically the state intelligence wing, reaching out and allying with the anti-Castro Cubans.
01:08:27 But this guy is a pro-Castro Cuban and he’s working there.
01:08:37 How crazy is that? Well, you know, he’s, to me it’s pretty obvious that he’s a spook of some kind.
01:08:42 I can only spend a couple minutes on this because of our time configurations.
01:08:45 But the quick summary is that there was an operation called AMAPOLA Cuban intelligence agents in the United States.
01:08:55 And it was part of a larger operation that was called ZRKNICK, which was a joint FBI CIA op.
01:09:00 And the main guy to AMAPOLA was a guy named Jose Carbonell.
01:09:06 And Jose Carbonell is also known as Miguel Sanchez.
01:09:11 And he’s the other guy on this, that I have the pseudonym here for.
01:09:14 So Garriga works in this office in Miami, for the State Department handles matters such as waivers, visas and taxes.
01:09:24 And Garriga is desirous of helping the revolution and has access to information and then it gets into a yet another hidey hole about H Diaz, which is another story about what I consider a fake assassination plot on Kennedy in 62.
01:09:43 And if you look up H Diaz, you’ll see where I’m going with all this.
01:09:49 It goes back to Bill Harvey and JMWAVE, I think, trying to create a series of Castro did it stuff. I think it’s quite possible.
01:10:01 that They wanted to kill Kennedy as early as 62.
01:10:02 And that’s a longer story.
01:10:06 I’m not going to get into here.
01:10:07 But this is like the first nibbles.
01:10:09 This is the endpoint nibbles of all this Cuban craziness.
01:10:13 You see a cable November 21st. It’s but sensitive information.
that Cuban intelligence is targeting against the State Department office man in Miami.
01:10:23 And then on the 22nd a memo that another memo says, request headquarters forward wave details about the state employee against whom the Cuban efforts being targeted.
01:10:36 Wave needs this information to work with the FBI.
01:10:41 And then you see more.
01:10:42 Now you see the Cuban intel about all this and they’re studying Garriga. And they’re looking at Garriga real hard and they’re studying the reaction of the worms, the gusanos, the anti-Castros and the Republicans to the death of Kennedy.
01:11:01 They’re studying that.
01:11:01 And then they get into it.
01:11:03 And there’s an incident with where there’s a little pipe bomb that goes off at the driving school of a guy who on the Fair Play for Cuba mailing list, but his office is in Havana. There’s and then finally you start seeing Bill Harvey’s go to Anita Potocki following the same thing, and it’s an AMKNOB memo. I used to think the Garriga and AMKNOB 1 were one and the same.
01:11:35 Turns out AMKNOB 1 is not Garriga. Believe it or not, it’s Veciana’s cousin-in-law who worked, at wait for it, the Cuban consulate in Mexico City.
01:11:47 And so that’s a correction I’m gonna put in my book.
01:11:52 What I’m trying to drive at is there’s an incredible amount of drama going on here.
01:11:58 It’s clear that Garriga is working with another woman who has a story in herself named Norweb.
01:12:03 Both of them are double agents.
01:12:06 They’re still spying on the Cubans.
01:12:06 They’re spying on the Americans, and so is Carbonell, who was the next guy here, and the Carbonell story also goes on for years from 60, all the way to 69.
01:12:17 And the short version of the Carbonell story is that he’s working, he winds up being tracked by a variety of people, including Bill Harvey and Tony Sforza. Carbonell states to I believe it’s the, I believe it’s the CIA report on this one. Where Marcos Diaz Lonz, the brother of the guy who flew out of Cuba with a plane he was no he got smuggled out with Morales.
01:12:50 And he was head of the Cuban Air Force, Pedro Diaz Lonz. So he they told Tony Sforza that Carbonell had worked as a Cuban agent for the last three years, he’d been dispatched to the US to perform an espionage mission.
01:13:06 He’s a double agent.
01:13:08 FBI wants more information, and they used Carbonell.
01:13:12 He’s like, the point person, he’s Mr. AMAPOLA. So it goes on and on.
01:13:18 It’s great drama.
01:13:18 I love it.
01:13:22 And I think it really helps illustrate the era we’re talking about.
01:13:24 More than most stories.
01:13:28 So this is among the reasons I think the crypts and pseudonyms are super important.
01:13:34 We’ve got hundreds of them, I think we may be up to a thousand I think 2,000 is too high.
01:13:41 But we got a lot.
01:13:41 And we could use help.
01:13:43 And you could mail them to me, you could mail them to me, Rex, but I’d start by mailing them to me, because I’m doing a lot of the work on, that’s kind of my little subset.
01:13:55 So with that, I think what I’d like to do is ask if we could turn now to the first item in the topic four and we got that queued up.
01:14:12 So I may ask you to scroll occasionally.
01:14:14 But first, I want to talk about what I think are the most important aspects of what this chronology offers.
01:14:21 And we’re going to dip into this chronology in telling this story.
01:14:26 I want to talk about Lieutenant George Butler here.
01:14:32 He was the head of juvie for the Dallas Police, okay.
01:14:38 He was also one of the heavies with the Ku Klux Klan.
01:14:40 He also was a driver for HL hunt.
01:14:42 He also had a key role in running the show at the police basement on November 24th. And by the way, if you all were in Dallas, at that hotel about three years ago, it’s fallen right out of my head.
01:14:59 But it was a different hotel than we usually go to.
01:15:02 The Lorenzo.
01:15:05 I went behind the Lorenzo and that’s where the Dallas Police Association is located.
01:15:09 And the Dallas Police Association building is named after Lieutenant George Butler, that admitted Klansmen, okay.
01:15:19 And I knocked on the door it’s about 9:30 in the morning, I figured it’s gonna be this kind of it went down just the way I thought it would.
01:15:27 I knocked on the door.
01:15:29 I didn’t think the bell worked so. I rang the bell, didn’t think it worked, knocked on the door.
01:15:35 The guy comes the door.
01:15:35 He’s screaming at me at 9:30 in the morning for knocking and ringing.
01:15:39 And he thought I was impatient and started screaming at me immediately.
01:15:43 And he was your basic fascist type thug.
01:15:46 I can’t be polite about this.
01:15:49 And I tried you know, of course, he wouldn’t let me in.
01:15:53 I pretty much knew that.
01:15:54 But I asked politely after he’d calmed down.
01:15:57 And he said, No, you got to go downtown.
01:15:58 That’s where all the stuff on the Kennedy case is and blah blah.
01:16:01 It was really, really funny.
01:16:04 In any case, what I’m driving at is George Butler is deeply admired to this day by the Dallas Police.
01:16:15 And he’s a heavy hitter. And there’s September 63 memos that show Hosty and Butler and communist informants like, you know, the guy I mentioned and the ultra-right weapon runners all penetrating each other just like what we saw before.
01:16:33 Jack Revill’s in the mix, Mason Hall and Seymour had their Stringfellow from the Special Services Bureau, the same guy who called up the, you know, the Air Force Base and tried to start World War Three by saying Oswald you know, just gotten back from Cuba and this and that on November 22nd. There’s a whole lot going on.
01:16:57 It’s like spook Central.
01:16:57 Everybody knew it.
01:17:00 And another thing about this chrono that’s really worth reading is the communist, William Lowery who ran a shoe store near the Texas theater.
01:17:09 He had been tailing Joe Molina who worked at the Texas Book Depository as a bookkeeper for many years because Molina was active in the Hispanic movement, Hispanic GI Forum.
01:17:20 Lowery was always trying to get info on him and trying to recruit him in the Communist Party.
01:17:26 Molina was pretty conservative.
01:17:27 He wasn’t interested.
01:17:27 Now, what Greg Parker pointed out, got me thinking and then I found of course, Peter Dale Scott was ahead of both of us, I think
01:17:33 Did Oswald take Lowery’s place in tailing
01:17:39 Molina? That would really explain why he wound up there you know, just something innocent.
01:17:45 You know, he’s taken over this guy’s job in some way.
01:17:47 Again, wittingly or unwittingly. This one would really, you know, somebody just had to give him a tip.
01:17:56 Say, you know, we heard Molina was running around with the communists, that kind of thing.
01:17:59 When Oswald or Oswald’s double was seen outside Johnny brewer’s shoe store, was he looking for Lowery at that store? Did he go to the wrong place? I mentioned Butler was a heavy hitter. But I didn’t mention that butler’s former partner was a guy we’re going to talk about later this afternoon.
01:18:18 Pat, Captain Pat Ganaway. He was master of the Dallas spooks.
01:18:23 He was the chief of what was called the Special Services Division.
01:18:27 He ran criminal intelligence vice and narcotics.
01:18:30 Below him was Jack Revill who only ran the red squad that was like, you know, they didn’t have that many communists.
01:18:36 In Dallas.
01:18:38 Come on.
01:18:38 Dallas is like an aviation town.
01:18:40 It’s like Military Industrial Central.
01:18:41 With big money floating around in 63.
01:18:43 That’s where the action really is.
01:18:46 Yeah, and the mafia was in the middle of all that, too.
01:18:50 They knew where the money was.
01:18:51 They were running the restaurants they’re running.
01:18:52 You know, the, the gun stuff.
01:18:55 They’re running the drug stuff.
01:18:57 They’re running all the good vice stuff.
01:18:59 And Ganaway is everywhere.
01:18:59 He’s on top of all these worlds.
01:19:02 He’s a superpower and Butler is a superpower too. Butler was born in Texas in 1907.
He joins the Dallas police force in 46, Paul Rowland Jones, an underworld crime boss, contacts Butler and says I’ll give you money to help establish my gambling operation in Dallas.
01:19:24 Butler arranges a meeting with Jones and Sheriff Steve Guthrie.
01:19:27 Jones offered Guthrie an annual sum of $150,000.
This conversation is recorded and Jones was eventually convicted of attempted bribery.
01:19:38 Jones appealed his three-year sentence on the grounds he had been entrapped by a well-established, corrupt law enforcement system in Dallas.
01:19:45 Undocumented, but colorful article you want to read it. Now, Seth Cantor who’s really my hero.
01:19:51 Seth was the guy of course who saw Oswald at Parkland, and then the Warren Commission didn’t believe him.
01:20:00 So he wound up writing the best book I think on Jack Ruby and all this craziness.
01:20:04 In 1980 After the HSCA, you know, punted, a lot of this stuff. Cantor wrote Butler’s knowledge of organized crime was so intimate that he had been made the key man in the department contacted by the Chicago mob when they chose to move into Dallas in 1946 and make police payoffs. And later he was loaned by the Dallas Police Department to aid three different US Senate investigatory groups as an expert on gangster operations.
01:20:31 In his dealings with organized crime Butler got to know Jack Ruby.
01:20:35 Ruby sister Eva Grant had been involved with Paul Roland Jones and Waldron Duncan, in an effort to transport opium between Chicago and Dallas.
01:20:45 Later Butler was to claim Ruby had been a sleeper, a member of organized crime who maintained the image of a law-abiding citizen.
01:20:54 Steve Guthrie told the FBI that Ruby was a front man in Dallas for the Chicago syndicate.
01:20:59 Butler knew about Ruby and his criminal connections with people like Paul Jones by the late 1940s.
01:21:04 Paul Jones describes him as being head of the policeman’s union in Dallas for a number of years.
01:21:09 Then the Kefauver committee you know failed to expose the extent of the Chicago Mob’s takeover of Dallas gambling in 46-47 when Ruby himself moved from Chicago to Dallas. Butler said Jones was his informant after the election of 46.
01:21:29 And Butler said Ruby wanted to be part of his group, but they didn’t want any part of him. He had to go from San Francisco to Dallas because San Francisco didn’t want Dallas, San Francisco didn’t want him either.
01:21:41 Now at this point in 48, Butler’s now working in narcotics and following mobsters, his partner’s Is Pat Ganaway. Ganaway and Butler arrested Paul Jones at the end of the operation. Ruby was interrogated behind closed doors at a key favorite committee meeting by Butler in 1950.
01:21:59 And you can read about it I’m not going to get into the details, but he knew Ruby, big time okay.
Kefauver congratulated Butler in 1950 for stopping corruption for reaching Dallas.
01:22:13 And then Ruby was not involved in the bribery attempt.
01:22:21 In fact, Butler said he had never heard of Ruby until after the investigation and the trial had been completed.
01:22:27 He stated the way Ruby came into the picture was a number of individuals who were involved in the bribery attempt and in particular, Paul Rowland Jones began hanging out, at Ruby’s club after the sentence. Bill Turner, who I think most of you know the guy who wrote Deadly Secrets, great investigator, former FBI guy turned on Hoover.
01:22:48 He wrote that Jones told the FBI he believed Butler was first in earnest and wanted to pay off. Desisting only when he learned that the Texas Rangers were wise to the negotiations.
01:22:59 According to Michael Benson, Butler was an associate of Harold HL Hunt.
01:23:06 His source was probably Turner who wrote that Butler made a point of driving Hunt to his speaking engagements.
01:23:12 Now in 55 Butler moved from the field of racketeers and mobsters and into the juvenile division. He could kind of lie low there and he sees the up-and-coming gangsters, if you will, you know, and you know, who’s controlling them and the rest of it? It’s not like he’s, you know, some kind of saint. 58.
01:23:29 With Bobby Kennedy asking the questions.
01:23:32 Butler testifies before him at the investigation of improper activities in the labor management field.
01:23:37 Butler testified mainly about how the mob moved in during the late 40s
01:23:41 with their coin operated machines, in Dallas had a 18 million dollar enterprise.
01:23:46 This is hardly what he testified in 1950 where Kefauver’s patting him on the back right.
01:23:52 Gambling and prostitution were endemic in Dallas during this period.
01:23:55 So Butler was either putting on RFK or RFK’s letting it happen, for political reasons.
01:24:03 And then in 61, Butler provides information to Penn Jones, who I think most you know, one of the great investigators of this case. He had a newspaper in the neighborhood of the Midlothian mirror. One of the bravest men in the world for many reasons.
01:24:17 We’ll see why in a minute.
01:24:20 According to Jones, Butler told him that 50 percent of the Dallas Police Department were also members of the Ku Klux Klan.
01:24:26 Whether that’s true or false, is not my point.
01:24:28 That’s quite a thing to say.
01:24:30 More to the point.
01:24:32 He also wanted Jones to start a statewide Ku Klux Klan newspaper with him.
01:24:37 And the reporter on this is Bill Turner back in 67.
01:24:39 Now the Minutemen were not known as the Minutemen so much in that part of the world, they had bases in other parts of the country like Missouri was their base.
01:24:50 But you had a lot of hardcore, you know, right-wing people, you know, with various names of groups.
01:24:58 And we’ll touch on a couple of them as we go along.
01:25:02 But Minutemen were not a thing in the Dallas area.
01:25:05 In 62 Penn Jones tells the FBI that Edgar Wesley Shea, an employee of General Walker, tried to burn down his newspaper office with a gallon can of gas and a paper fuse thrown through the front door.
01:25:17 I got a little side piece in here, which simply is more about Butler’s activities in Las Vegas in 1963.
01:25:26 He was working with the mob in Las Vegas supposedly investigating them but you know who knows how deep it went.
01:25:38 And another long story I don’t have the time for, but he’s working, watching the mobsters.
01:25:47 It’s while he’s staying at the Flamingo.
01:25:49 And meanwhile, Penn Jones is fending off people like Shea.
01:25:53 He gets into a fist fight with Shea. Penn Jones was about five feet tall.
01:25:57 He was like a Bantam rooster.
01:25:59 And what I heard he had the best of the fist fight. and nobody went nobody went to jail.
01:26:02 Here we are at September 63 Hosty gets a hot tip that there was activity with a group similar to the Minutemen. Revill saying well we don’t know about him. And this is the same guy who gave weapons to that were picked up by a guy who got short got his stuff busted while he’s trying to join Edwin Walker, to fight against James Meredith in the riots in Oxford, of Mississippi, you know. And then of course, Walker gets picked up Bobby Kennedy puts him in a a psych ward.
01:26:42 And, you know, you can imagine how much Walker loved the Kennedys after that.
01:26:46 Molina who I mentioned worked with the American GI Forum.
01:26:52 And the communist who I mentioned Lowery, who Oswald might have, you know, taken the place of tailing Lowery. Molina, If you buy my story.
01:27:06 Larry got Himself as the chairman of Molina’s American GI Forum. That shows how close their relationship was. There’s a lot of left-wing, right-wing, chicken-wing activity going on.
01:27:18 9-9-63 Hosty’s informant is also his close friend, a, Republican Party activist.
01:27:22 That was Robert Surrey, one of the guys who worked with conservativism USA who did the blackborded ad on November 22nd, which I increasingly think was, you know, was not accidental. That was done as a way of, you know, you know, Surrey didn’t know about the assassination, but Surrey was card playing pals with Jim Hosty.
01:27:43 And so Hosty’s compromised yet again.
01:27:47 Although Hosty claims to be a JFK man and a Democrat, Weisberg found that both he and Revill were as far to the right as even Dallas permits.
01:27:56 I still hold in my heart the Revill was a straight shooter.
01:28:00 But you know, you gotta focus on the relationships to make decisions and I’m not decided on Revill yet.
01:28:05 So if we could scan down a little bit now, I don’t want to run out of time.
01:28:08 I think I got my own copy here.
01:28:10 And I think where I’m going to take it now, is I want to take it to 11/21/63.
01:28:20 Okay, because we got to get to the Oswald stuff now.
01:28:25 So, if you have it queued up, November 21st 63, the entire operational plan for the motorcade is conducted in Cury’s office on this day.
01:28:37 Ganaway, Sawyer again, the guy who guarded the book depository, Lumpkin who guided drove the pilot car with radio communications, radio communication we’ve never heard to this day, a secret service members Forrest Sorrels and Winston Lawson among the 14 present. Lawson of course, is the guy reduced the numbers of motorcycles flanking the president from four to two on each side, November 22nd, the official report indicates homicide officers found the shells at the Book Depository when in fact it was Jerry Hill, or Luke Mooney.
01:29:10 And then Lumpkin then instructs Revill to organize his team against the east wall and make a systematic search and a member of Revill’s searching party finds the rifle.
01:29:23 Now, you know I mentioned here again, that left and you can find this yourself but Lowery’s shoe store is just about three blocks away from the Texas theater.
01:29:31 Three blocks away from Brewer’s shoe store.
01:29:36 Is there some kind of relationship between Brewer’s shoe store and Lowery’s? You know as a question, you can see a photo of Lowery.
01:29:43 You can and then this quote really gets to me it’s in bold there.
01:29:49 The Houston Chronicle reports that Oswald who had been interviewed by the FBI only six days before the assassination. And that story leaked out. And you and then the FBI called Cury and said, you deny that Shanklin said that. I’ll kill you if you don’t kill that story.
01:30:11 It’s not true.
01:30:11 It’s not true.
01:30:11 You know, well, okay it wasn’t an interview, maybe, but he certainly dropped off a note.
01:30:18 So Oswald who had been interviewed by the FBI only six days before it became important to the police only after he missed an employee Roll Call.
01:30:26 Soon after, he was the only one who couldn’t be accounted for. Whose quote on this?
01:30:30 Detective Captain Pat Ganaway. This guy is like a super professional.
01:30:34 He is you know, he’s, you’re supposed to have a fair trial.
01:30:38 You’re not supposed to be leaking information to the press.
01:30:41 Especially when it’s not true like this roll call called nonsense.
01:30:44 There was many employees it couldn’t be accounted for. A lot because they were locked out of the building because people Like Herb Sawyer had thrown security around the building.
Pat Ganaway is the chief of this the Special Services Bureau.
01:30:59 As I said, his subordinate was directing police intelligence communications at the Fair Park office on 11/22.
01:31:07 The Fair Park office is also where civil defense was located. National, state and local radio and communications
01:31:16 are all centered there.
01:31:16 A lot of us have with I think, good reason suspected this might have been a communications base for all kinds of things.
01:31:24 It’s an enormous underground facility, you know, built for a nuclear war.
01:31:29 Jack Revill, John Stringfellow.
01:31:31 All these other people report from intelligence reported directly to Ganaway so did vice and narcotics.
01:31:38 Ganaway was a reserve army intelligence officer, like many of the Dallas police officers, the famous report of Harvey Lee Oswald. on top of all the employees at the book depository, which a lot of you have seen. It went from Revill to Ganaway. Ruby would frequent the Special Services Bureau since 1956,
01:31:56 to arrange for the city licenses he needed to operate his nightclubs in Dallas.
01:32:02 The source for his information Mary Hartford was Ganaway’s secretary from 56 to 62.
01:32:08 Another police chief described Hartford as possibly Ruby’s mistress, because their relationship was so close.
01:32:14 Ganaway had the six members of the indignant White Citizens Council, a council I might add that Butler spoke in front of at least as recently as 61.
01:32:26 He was a big fan of that council.
01:32:26 He had them taken into custody at the Trade Mart on November 22nd, to prevent them from being assaulted after the killing of JFK.
01:32:36 So anyway, if you want more background on Ganaway and special services, give me half an hour and we’ll get into it.
01:32:44 But he described himself as the guy in charge of criminal intelligence section.
01:32:48 Our responsibility is to report, investigate crimes of an organized nature, subversive activities, racial matters, labor racketeering, anything the chief wants, we answer to the chief. And you know, Revill, says My captain is Captain Ganaway. And so I’m going to skip ahead now.
01:33:12 And I want to go to 11 23 63 2 a.m. At this point, the Dallas police come barging into Joe Molina’s home in the middle of the night and have a search warrant for his place.
01:33:24 Their leader is Pat Ganaway, Butler’s ex-partner. Nothing turns up, but they strongly suggest Molina come to the station the following morning.
01:33:32 He complies.
01:33:34 And, you know, all this caused Molina to lose his job because he was basically out in the public and in the press and in the TV around the world as the second suspect, at least for 48 hours.
01:33:48 They detained him the next day, they never actually arrested him.
01:33:52 Now let’s get to November 24th, which is the heart of the beast for me today.
01:33:57 Bill Turner alleged that Butler was in charge of the Oswald transfer. Was one of the big clan biggest clan leaders around and gave the all clear to bring him into the basement.
01:34:08 Yeah, Waldo, corroborates all of his points.
01:34:13 In this memo he wrote to Harold Weisberg. Waldo wrote for the local paper, he’s one of my real heroes.
01:34:19 I can tell you a lot more about Waldo another day.
01:34:20 He had to write this from Mexico, because he had to get out of town.
01:34:24 He was too hot.
01:34:24 But by the time 67 or so rolled around.
01:34:26 Bill Turner was unequivocal that Butler was the man who had the overall responsibility for the transfer of Oswald.
01:34:35 Between 10 and 11 a.m. Waldo in the December 2nd 63 interviews said that reporters were standing outside on Commerce Street when Butler came up to them and said come in. They proceeded to enter where they were checked for weapons.
01:34:50 The reason for the delay in moving Oswald is they needed to obtain armored vehicles which didn’t arrive till this time.
01:34:57 Later Cury, who was at the homicide bureau, and others changed their mind and told Stevenson they decided to use detective cars to transport Oswald, using the armored vehicles as a decoy. 11am, Lieutenant Butler statement, written a few days that later, he says a few of the other detectives, they reported to Captain OA Jones, who stationed the detectives where he wanted.
01:35:19 Bachelor, Deputy Chief, Pat Dean, head of security, a real crook. The Warren Commission hated him. And the and Butler searched the armored car before Oswald came down.
01:35:32 Dean allegedly told Butler that Bachelor wanted Butler to ride in the armored car with Oswald. Jones said deputy Stevenson summoned him at 11am and said, told him to move a few detectives where needed.
01:35:46 He was plainly not in charge. Stevenson said Tolbert was in charge,
01:35:49 of patrolman. Jones, who was like the bunco squad guy, you know, the forgery squad guy, was in charge of the detectives, and homicide officers were in charge of the actual transport of Oswald. Now, Detective Lowery at 11:10, who I think is one of the good guys, states that Butler was cleaning out the armored car with a group of officers around him. You can see the raw footage at about 8 o’clock. At 11:15, Stevenson meets Lumpkin on the third floor elevator and tells him about the change of plans on the way to the basement.
01:36:22 They’re not going to use the armored car anymore.
01:36:23 They’re going to use detective cars.
01:36:25 This is where everything falls apart.
01:36:27 And I just wanted to end with this.
01:36:32 11:15 Stevenson met Lumpkin on the third floor elevator and told him of the change of plans on the way to the basement.
01:36:42 On arrival in the basement,
01:36:45 Stevenson told Bachelor and Jones. Fort Worth Star Telegram journalist Thayer Waldo said on the morning of 11/24 he never saw anyone trembling like Butler.
01:36:55 Waldo wrote in a long letter, he was stunned when Patrick Dean was introduced to the Ruby jury as the officer in charge of security at jail that morning, rather than Butler.
01:37:05 And we’re gonna start with pictures and video, hopefully, in the next section.
01:37:12 But that’s the Butler story that leads right up to zero moment.
01:37:17 Thank you.
01:37:19« Okay, so we just finished section three and section four.
01:37:23 So let me stop share here.
01:37:25 And we can take some questions.
01:37:29 So who, who would like to ask a question of Bill of what we talked about in section three in section four.
01:37:35« Oh, Bill, this is Casey Quinlan.
01:37:40« I can, can you hear me? Yes.
01:37:43« I just got some information the last couple of days that maybe it wasn’t Bachelor, after all, that opened the door four or five minutes before to let Ruby in.
01:37:58 And it was my understanding that the information that that I now have, that it was Patrick Dean, that may have let him in? Do you know anything about who actually let him in?
« Oh, yeah.
01:38:13 Who let him in? No, you’re ahead of me on this one.
01:38:17 I still don’t, know. I still don’t have a theory on that.
01:38:21« Okay, and the reason I bring that up is because I think there’s going to be some articles on this being brought out in the garrison magazine.
01:38:31 Later on, and I think it’s either October or November.
01:38:34 But I’ve got wind of that.
01:38:36 And I was questioning that.
01:38:40 And I thought this might be a good time to throw that at you.
01:38:43 Especially with
« That’s great, I mean, this is to me in the last few months, this has become like the biggest central piece.
01:38:52 And the reason I feel so passionately about it is that if we can find out who helped Ruby, at least on a historical level, that gives us a big clue as to you know, who the operatives were, at least as to the aspect of the killing of Oswald as we all know, you know, there’s you got several reasons you want to kill Oswald.
01:39:14 But one of them just might be that you were in on the hit.
01:39:17 Not just trying to cover up.
01:39:19 This did not, killing Oswald, did not make the Dallas police look good, right.
01:39:24 This was like an international disaster for their image.
01:39:30 It’s never really recovered.
01:39:30 Right.
01:39:32 So you don’t do something like this unless there’s something extraordinary that needs to be covered up not just bad police work.
01:39:39« Boy, you are so right.
01:39:42 And I’m telling you, the information that you have given this evening is unbelievable, and it’s something that we need to contend with and look at even deeper.
01:39:52 So thank you very much for your presentation.
01:39:55« Well, thank you and that’s precisely why I felt so passionately about having so many handouts, because, you know, you guys should read this for yourself, and now I’ve got a short Chrono here, a little analysis there.
01:40:08 And we’ll all have some good discussions.
01:40:11 And I think we I think we have more tools for this case and John Armstrong got me going on this.
01:40:20 I want to give him props now.
01:40:22 Because John wrote, online, I wish people would look at these photos of Croy and Ruby, which is what I want to turn to next.
01:40:32 And tell me what they think, you know, is this Croy, is this Ruby? Because I think they are.
01:40:39 And I think what these photos show is Ruby did not come running down the ramp, and passed Croy and Blackie Harrison, the two cops that he allegedly ran between and take his shot.
01:40:51 He was standing there.
01:40:51 And this is the kind of thing that I don’t generally do, you know, and, you know, for one thing most of us don’t go back and look at this footage, because we figure you know, we know did it Ruby did it, you know, it wasn’t Jim Bookhout from the FBI.
01:41:07 Sorry,
01:41:07 Ralph, I don’t think that’s the case.
01:41:09 But there is something to be learned, which is who helped Ruby get in the building? Like you just said, Casey.
01:41:15 That’s the $64 question.
01:41:18 And the one right behind it is who enabled him to get flanker coverage.
01:41:25 So he could come in there like a fullback and get his shot into Oswald’s chest.
01:41:29« Hey, Bill.
01:41:32« Yeah.
01:41:33« Just to clarify, the stuff that you see said we can all take a look at sorry where do we look at it? Where is it hosted?
« Yes, let me take that question.
01:41:45 If you go to Projectjfk.com, and you click on the Events tab, you will look right underneath the announcement of Bill’s Spotlight Series tonight, and you’ll see that there’s 18 downloads that are basically everything we’re showing and what we’re not showing that you can actually click on and then you can download everything virus free, and you’ll be able to see everything, all the links are there.
01:42:12 So yeah, go ahead and click on that.
01:42:14 And I think that answers Joe Backes’s question as well of where to find the stuff at. But again, Projectjfk.com, click on the Events tab and scroll down underneath bill and you’ll see the white box, that has all the downloads.
01:42:26« Amazing.
01:42:28 It’s great.
01:42:28 it’s great work.
01:42:28 Great work you guys are doing.
01:42:30« Yeah, it says virtual handouts.
01:42:33 Downloads. That’s the section you want to look at.
01:42:35 Who else has a question for Bill?
« I’ll ask a question.
01:42:45 If I if I may about if Bill knows this, which is during the Warren Commission investigation of the shooting in the basement,
01:42:55 one of the Warren Commission attorneys, who’s pretty well thought of, accused a Dallas police officer of being a liar.
01:43:05 He finally had such an outburst that the Warren Commission took him off that aspect of it.
01:43:11 Was that about the who was in the basement and who the Dallas PD guy was there?
«Yep.
01:43:20 Yep.
01:43:20 That was Patrick Dean, the guy we were talking about.
01:43:22 Yeah, they were livid at Dean.
01:43:24 I can’t remember if it was Rankin, who was so livid.
01:43:27 But he called, he cussed him out on the record.
01:43:33 Like that damned liar, I think is the phrase.
01:43:36« Yeah.
01:43:36 A lot of friction A lot of friction.
01:43:39« Yeah.
01:43:39 Well, yeah, Dean came close to it. I don’t think they were going to do it.
01:43:46 But if anybody came close to getting charged for perjury, it was him. They were really angry.
01:43:51 And it was to me,
01:43:53 it’s like, again, one of the central faults of the Warren Commission that you know, they had it in their hands to break this part of the case and the house, the
01:44:03 HSCA did a lot more work on it.
01:44:03 But not nearly enough.
01:44:06« Russ Baker commented that he thinks it was Bert Griffin that was the attorney.
01:44:12« That sounds right.
01:44:12 That sounds right.
01:44:14 Yeah, Burt’s still alive, isn’t he?
Yeah.
01:44:17 Yeah, we could ask about Pat Dean
01:44:18 one more time.
01:44:20« Thank you.
01:44:27« Okay, who else would like to ask a question about section three and section four that we just completed. Anybody else have questions? If not, we’ll move on to Section Five.
01:44:42« Yeah, and the way I’d like to do this is I want to do an extension on Part Four and shorten part five.
01:44:51 Because part five, you know, I’ve done it before and it’s my favorite article.
01:44:55 It’s about the ten items that the Warren commission believe, you know, made Oswald the obvious guilty person.
01:45:05 And my article addresses that, you can read the article.
01:45:10 If I have time, I’ll touch on it.
01:45:13 But this Oswald stuff as you can tell is close to my heart right now.
01:45:17 And what I’d like you to ask you to do, David is, if you could find that John Armstrong graph, I think this would be the way to start the show
01:45:29 on that.
01:45:31« Let me see here.
01:45:31 Was that actually in the outline? Or is that a separate…
« It’s the last three of the posts.
Okay, let me get to that.
01:45:45 Okay, let me see where we’re at.
01:45:59 Do you know what page number that’s on by chance? Bill?
« Oh, it’s all the way at the bottom.
01:46:06 Remember the last three that I sent you? The at the very, very end?
« Oh, the last three.
01:46:10 Oh, that’s the Yeah, that’s the extras
Okay.
01:46:14 Let me go back and get that hold on.
01:46:14« This is the power of zoom is that you know, if you make mistakes and stuff, you can still correct them.
01:46:28 And you can still post it.
01:46:30 Correct? Because you can find it.
01:46:31 And everybody can see it and seeing it makes such a difference.
01:46:35 All right.
01:46:37 Yeah.
01:46:37 You want to you want to choose the number two.
01:46:38 The Ruby diagram, I believe.
01:46:42 That’s it.
01:46:42 Let me look.
01:46:44 Yeah, that’s it.
01:46:44« Okay, let me pull up Ruby diagram.
01:46:46 And then also, on this. Okay, here we go.
01:47:07« All right.
01:47:10 Well, you can’t see my cursor or can you?
« No, I can’t see your cursor, but I can pinpoint something if you want.
01:47:17 to go Yes.
01:47:17« Let me use your cursor
01:47:19 then.
01:47:19 The X there, of course, is Mr. Oswald.
01:47:22 Right.
01:47:25 Right in the middle of the scrum passed. Go to the left, right here.
01:47:30 Yeah, right there.
01:47:32 Yeah.
01:47:32 Now I think you all from memory will remember that number.
01:47:34 63
01:47:34 is to his right, is LC Graves.
01:47:39 Right.
01:47:39 And then to his left is number 40.
01:47:41 And that’s Jim Leavelle.
01:47:45 Okay.
01:47:47 And number 90, right above that.
01:47:48 That’s Jack Ruby.
01:47:51 Okay.
01:47:51 Now follow the arrow back there.
01:47:53 And you see if you see that dotted line, that’s the route that they think that Ruby came in.
01:48:00 Okay.
01:48:00 Now, right above that, David, right above that dotted line.
01:48:06 If you can hold for a minute, you’ll see a rail.
01:48:08 Do you see that rail right there.
01:48:10 That’s it.
01:48:10 There’s the rail now go to your right.
01:48:12 Okay.
01:48:14 And you’ll see TV cameras, okay.
01:48:16 That’s where the TV cameras are stationed. That’s where the press is supposed to be, right with those TV cameras behind the rail.
01:48:22 Okay, they’re not there.
01:48:25 They are not there.
01:48:27 And you can see the rail, you know, continue after this opening, right?
01:48:32 But the weird thing is between these two rails, there’s an opening, right? And this is where the flanker maneuver begins.
01:48:39 Okay.
01:48:39 You got these two cars here.
01:48:42 Now, this all happened on the fly in the last five-ten minutes.
01:48:48 Remember how they decided not to use the armored car but decided to use it the last minute as a decoy.
01:48:53 So they’ve already got security problems, right? Because, or a security plan.
01:48:59 I think this was done on the wing, myself.
01:49:04 Because and the reason I say that is you see these two cars of Doherty and Brown right here?
01:49:11 Now they’re literally driving to the scene, if you can believe it.
01:49:16 After Ruby shoots Oswald, the car driven by Doherty Literally hits him in the butt.
01:49:24 And the reason why is because the car wasn’t really there.
01:49:28 The car’s is farther back, and it’s driving up frantically, but it can’t get through.
01:49:33 Because all these people are jamming the roadway and Doherty couldn’t get anywhere near Oswald. Meanwhile, Fritz, you know who is like I think he’s number 17 or 32. Fritz and Lumpkin right over against the south side of the ramp.
01:49:50 Okay.
01:49:50 And they’re way ahead of Graves and Leavelle and Oswald. So there’s an opening that’s been created. There’s no car.
01:50:01 And there’s this loose space. All these guys are going beyond the rail.
01:50:06 There’s no effect of security anymore.
01:50:08 And Ruby is not actually charging up at the last minute.
01:50:18 I wanna in a minute after you get a chance to take all this in after what I’m going to say. My point is that Ruby stands with Croy. And I found this impossible to believe, even 72 hours ago. I said, Oh, John Armstrong’s mistaken about Croy and John Armstrong’s mistaken about Ruby.
01:50:40 And, but he bases it on his belief system about what happened here.
01:50:48 So what I’m going to ask is, if we could turn away from the diagram now? Oh, well, you know, there’s one more diagram I’d like to look at.
01:50:56 Just to give you a full sense of what’s going on here.
01:50:58 Could we go down to the next diagram and put that on screen?
« Yeah.
01:51:05 Let me pull it back up here to the next one, that’s the Dallas basement, broad angle?
01:51:13« That’s it.
01:51:13« Okay.
01:51:16« Here we go.
01:51:22« Okay.
01:51:24 So if you go to the top, David, top left-hand corner, you’ll see Western Union.
01:51:28 And then you see all these different dotted lines, you’ll see like four different dotted lines going from Western Union, okay.
01:51:33 And all these are, represent possible routes that Ruby might have taken to get in there that day, you know, and this is written on like December 16 63.
01:51:44 I mean, all this is fresh.
01:51:47 Okay.
01:51:47 This comes from an 800-page report that I finally found, again, preparing for this thing.
01:51:55 I knew that the 11-page report was written, I didn’t, I knew Westbrook was one of the people that had written it, I didn’t realize the other two were Sawyer, who I think is a rat.
01:52:06 And, OA Jones, who was head of the forgery Bunco squad, who I think is also very possibly no good.
01:52:13 They were the three investigators of this case.
01:52:16 And they wrote a 800-page report
01:52:19 that’s basically the Warren report of the Dallas Police.
01:52:25 And almost nobody’s read this thing. Steve Thomas got it back in the 70s. He had to pay a cop to give it to him.
01:52:31 That’s what he told me online yesterday. We have a little discussion going at the ed forum on all this.
01:52:38 And you guys are welcome to go there and take a look at our discussion.
01:52:41 So, and we also got some good photos that helped polish my thinking on this.
01:52:46 In any case, you see all these routes that Ruby could have taken, but the bottom line is that they all lead, you know, it looks seems to me the most probable one.
01:52:58 And what a lot of the cops think happened is he he went south and walked right into a door that was left open for him or somebody opened it for him at the first floor, and then he walked down to the basement.
01:53:10 And found his way into the center of things.
01:53:15 And when he arrived, then the all clear was issued.
01:53:22 This illustrates just how, you know they’ve been waiting for more than an hour to bring down Oswald. And then you know, and they just didn’t bring them down until they got the all clear once they got the all clear.
01:53:33 It only took them a minute to put them on the elevator.
01:53:35 And if you’ll go back to the bottom of this.
01:53:38 If you go back to the Armstrong version, I don’t think you can see the elevator here.
01:53:46 But the Armstrong version shows you where the elevator is.
01:53:49 If you go back to that.
01:53:50« That was the first diagram.
01:53:52« Yeah.
01:53:55« Okay, let me go back to that.
01:53:55« I just want to illustrate how those four minutes, you really had a lot of time there.
01:54:02 These guys all have radios, right? They all have eyes, they can see Ruby and Walking in, right.
01:54:09 But now here’s, you know, you got a jail office there.
01:54:15 And at the bottom, you got a little trail there.
01:54:21 You know that’s a jail elevator.
01:54:21 Right? So they take them down the elevator that takes one minute, you know, and then that takes 30 seconds more or less. They pretty much frog marched him right out. You know and one of the killer things about all this is when they did frog march him out,
01:54:38 all the TV guys have got their TV lights going and so there’s an enormous glare, absolutely enormous glare. And so you can’t and so I mean it even screws up Ruby’s face.
01:54:51 That was one of the reasons I couldn’t recognize Ruby.
01:54:56 He’s in a glare. And Leavelle and Graves, and the other cops who are following, they’ve got basically no some security in front of them.
01:55:07 They can’t even see because the cameras and the flashlights are going off right in their face.
01:55:12« Did you know when I saw that photograph bill the one that was at the beginning of this email?
« Ah, let’s look at it. Now this is really kind of telling to me.
01:55:35 This is a picture of on the left.
01:55:37 This is who John Armstrong told me was Ruby in the basement.
01:55:44 And it comes from a video clip at KRLD you know, it’s like a footage shot.
01:55:50 And I’m going boy, you know, the fedora, yeah, I’m with you on the fedora.
01:55:53 This does not look like Jack Ruby to me.
01:55:55 And I had a real hard time with it.
01:55:58 But then this is what happened at the Ed Forum. This shows to the power of sharing, you know, is Tony Chrome.
01:56:05 This guy I just met, he had already put this together a long time ago.
01:56:10 He goes, look at this.
01:56:10 Here, the picture on the right is Ruby Friday night, you know up, you know, in the police station.
01:56:18 You know where they got Oswald held, you know. And the stories I’ve heard from other police officers is that there was no way Ruby could get off a clean shot on Friday or Saturday night.
01:56:29 He never was able to get close enough to the prisoner.
01:56:32 But look how they treated his eyes.
01:56:33 Tony did something very smart.
01:56:36 They said, Okay, I’m gonna put the same glare on the Friday photo that comes from the Sunday
01:56:43 screen grab if you will.
01:56:45 Now, this is unequivocally a picture of Ruby.
01:56:50 Everybody agrees this Friday picture is a picture of Ruby, the Sunday scrum is a little bit more difficult to discern, for obvious reasons. But the picture on Friday, everybody agrees is Jack Ruby.
01:57:01 And that looks like a pretty close match for the guy at the Sunday scrum.
01:57:05 And so I have to tip my hat.
01:57:08 I’m like, okay,
01:57:11 Okay.
01:57:13 So now I need a little help, or a five minute break because I want to cue up some photos of Ruby and Croy and I’ve lost my path to the oh, here’s the Events page.
01:57:29 Okay.
01:57:29 Let’s see.
01:57:34 We got that one.
01:57:37 Let’s turn to topic four. Does the Lumpkin Ganaway set.
01:57:51 Does it have the pictures at the bottom?
« No.
01:57:56« No, this doesn’t have the pictures at the bottom.
01:58:00 Do you have, do you remember where ..This is why we might need a five-minute break.
01:58:05 There’s some good screen grabs that we have of Oswald. I mean of Ruby and Croy standing next to each other.
01:58:12« Let me look here real quick.
01:58:14« It might be let me take a look myself.
01:58:20 I think I got it.
01:58:22 Yeah, I do.
01:58:23 If you go to topic four, the the presentation itself, the first number four.
01:58:29 And scroll down to about page five of 16.
01:58:34« Yep let me pull that up.
« That’s where we got those photos.
01:58:36 Okay.
01:58:36 Okay.
01:58:39 Now this is this is great work by John Armstrong.
01:58:42 Okay.
01:58:42 And I let me start from the top of page five here.
01:58:47 Tell me when you got page five queued up.
01:58:49« Yep, the top of page five here says the difficult…
« Okay that’s It. The difficulty in verifying these photos show how little video there really is on the Oswald shooting from John Armstrong who was asking for review of the photos below.
01:59:04 After reading Croy’s testimony, I’m convinced that Croy was most likely the person who allowed Ruby to gain entrance to the basement so that he could kill Harvey Oswald. I’m not on board on that so much is what I’m going to say.
01:59:18 Please, I urge everyone to read Croy’s Warren Commission testimony and draw your own conclusions.
01:59:24 Here’s an excerpt of that testimony.
01:59:26 Griffin: tell us how you believe came to believe this man was Jack Ruby. Croy: Well as I was standing there in this glare came from my left, someone running and he ran by me at a pretty good clip, he was gaining momentum and he ran by me.
01:59:38 Griffin: now was there anybody in front of him at that point? Croy: Yes, there was reporters. Griffin:
01:59:44 There was reporters, now what did he do as he got to these reporters? Croy: he ran through him. Griffin: did he push him aside or what? Croy: these reporters he just lowered his head and ran through them like a fullback went through the line.
01:59:58 Now we could even maybe cue this up if the link works.
02:00:02 But let’s look at these pictures first.
02:00:04 Okay, this YouTube, CNN video less than a minute long shows Kenneth Croy in a white hat and police uniform,
02:00:12 standing next to Ruby in police headquarters just a second or two before Oswald appears.
Croy is the right most figure in the shot immediately below which was taken at the 12 second mark of the video.
02:00:23 Note how Croy seems to stand back from the action as Ruby shoots Oswald. Ruby,
- Go back up a second.
02:00:32 I’m still reading.
02:00:34 Ruby can be seen in the video standing next to reporters in the middle image.
02:00:39 It is clear that Ruby did not run by me, Croy, at a pretty good clip.
02:00:42 Ruby did not run by the reporters like a fullback ran through the line.
02:00:47 Okay, the first photo.
02:00:49 If you can go down just a little bit, that’s perfect.
02:00:53 Okay, that’s Croy with the white hat,
02:00:56 according to John and you know, I still am not 100%. But I tell you, I’m a lot closer to 100% than I was when I started this.
02:01:05 This guy walking here is Swain.
02:01:06 He’s another officer.
02:01:09 He’s the first, as I recall.
02:01:12 And then… it’s a completely broken operation either accidentally or on purpose.
02:01:18 Swain is walking through.
02:01:20 He doesn’t push anybody back.
02:01:23 He doesn’t tell Mike Pappas who’s the New York reporter in the white raincoat that.
02:01:27 And Blackie Harrison is next to him, I believe, with the little bald head there.
02:01:35 Yep.
02:01:35 And but I mean, he doesn’t tell anybody to move back.
02:01:39 It’s just they’re just getting closer and closer, you know, and they, they’ve been accommodating with these reporters.
02:01:44 But now they know they got a precious target.
02:01:46 The armored car is now a decoy, not the real thing.
02:01:48 And all done in the last 30 minutes.
02:01:50 Now you want to go to the second photo please.
02:01:52 Okay so Swain’s still walking.
02:01:55 Now.
02:01:58 Now, according to John and this is not the world’s best picture,
02:02:01 obviously.
02:02:01 I think there’s a better one, which we saw, actually this.
02:02:05 But go down one more.
02:02:08 I think we have a better picture still.
02:02:10 Yeah, that’s the best picture of Ruby.
02:02:12 But let’s go back to the other one first.
02:02:14 Now that we’ve established that Ruby type picture is there.
02:02:18 I looked at this stuff.
02:02:20 I’m going that’s Croy.
02:02:20 That’s Ruby, What’s the proof and I’m not here to say I’m a hundred percent. But I am here to say I’m closer than I was.
02:02:26 And there’s reasons why.
02:02:28 So again, Croy is identified. There’s a shadow, looks like Ruby shadow. This guy standing here. Croy you can just barely see him.
02:02:39 Now you can just see the tip of his hat behind the Ruby figure.
02:02:41 Swain has moved another foot or two.
02:02:45 You can see Fritz behind Swain.
02:02:50 He’s just starting to move into view.
02:02:54 Okay, as I said here, John Armstrong makes these IDs.
02:02:57 I’m unsure about Croy and Ruby figure has a fedora and a prominent nose but an oddly cut sideburn pointing towards two o’clock.
02:03:06 But I this was my hardest problem was the sideburn.
02:03:09 But as I think Tony Chrome explained, the problem is we’re looking at a picture that’s filled with glare.
02:03:15 Glare from not just the TV cameras, but the flash bulbs that are going off, you know, to pocket to pocket the pocket. Okay? Now, here’s the Ruby picture here.
02:03:25 And this is why, you know, a reasonable people would have problems equating that man with Ruby.
02:03:30 But if you remember that picture, we see of Ruby Friday night.
02:03:36 if you could explain away the sideway sideburn, which I think you can with the glare.
02:03:42 You know that because there’s a problem with the sideburn it’s like a two o’clock sideburn.
02:03:47 And that was my biggest problem.
02:03:49 I hate analyzing photos.
02:03:49 I think it’s a job, best done by experts.
02:03:54 But you know, we can tell when Fritz is here, we can tell when Swain is here, we can tell when Ike Pappas is here. It’s not impossible, you just have to use your judgment carefully.
02:04:05 Now, if you could scroll down just a little bit we can look at Oswald. I mean, look at Ruby rather.
02:04:11 I misspoke.
02:04:13 Yeah, we can see Ruby’s prominent nose but no two o’clock sideburn.
02:04:17 On December 1st 63, Croy gave an affidavit in which he said I saw a man running into the crowd in a crouch.
02:04:23 At that moment I reached for this individual and touched his coattail, attempting to stop him.
02:04:29 I saw him run right up to Oswald. Now, I’ll tell you on December 1st, or this, he says I knew it was Ruby.
02:04:39 He admits it was Ruby.
02:04:41 Ruby is standing next to him.
02:04:44 It’s a man he knew, as he admitted a few, you know, around December 1st, after not admitting that he knew the guy’s name for several days.
02:04:55 He admitted he knew who he was. And Pat Dean admitted to the Police, admitted to the news media, on the spot in the basement
02:05:03 minutes later.
02:05:03 Yeah, I know who that guy is, but I’m not going to tell you his name right now.
02:05:07 You know most of these cops knew Ruby, he was part of the wallpaper as a lot of us know.
02:05:13 And, and more importantly Croy knew Ruby. Croy, Ruby had bought him, you know, a meal three years earlier and it schmoozed with him afterwards.
02:05:22 All right can we scroll down a little bit.
02:05:25 Yeah, and that’s the quote from Croy. I saw a man in a crouch running into the crowd in a crouch.
02:05:34 At that moment, I reached for this individual and touched his coattail, attempting to stop him.
02:05:38 And right above it, he said, I saw a blur.
02:05:40 You know, I saw a blur.
02:05:42 Right when the cop quote went up to Oswald, Do you have any comment? At this time I observed the blur.
02:05:49 What we’re observing is not a blur.
02:05:50 You know, we’re observing somebody stand next to Croy if John has it, right.
02:05:54 All right, can we go scroll down a little bit more? Once again, Croy was lying.
02:06:00 And then here’s Griffin: did any one of those films that you watched show you reaching out and touching the coat of Ruby? Croy: No, none that I saw.
02:06:08 and then I you know, I carry on about Butler after that, which is not terribly useful, because we’ve talked about Butler.
02:06:18 So I want to move now to another portion of the discussion, which is, if is it possible going back to page 5 of 16 the previous page. If you’re up there, David, could you click on that YouTube CNN video? It would be great if you could watch the video as well.
I’m going to pull, I’m going to hold up here in just a second.
Great. All right you’re leaving the elevator. There’s Swain. All right stop. You can see, Croy’s hat. It all happened too fast.
02:07:26 Can we scroll back.
02:07:28 There’s Croy.
02:07:40 The Croy figure I should say.
02:07:42 The Croy figure again in the top right.
02:07:45 There’s Ruby.
02:07:47 There’s Ruby.
Here’s Ruby.
02:07:49 Now we see Ruby.
02:07:52 Okay, but this is not a blur coming through the crowd.
02:07:56 Go back one more time, please.
02:07:57 One last time.
02:07:59 And see if you can stop it when we see Ruby.
02:08:02 Right through Ruby. 13 seconds in.
02:08:09 I’m really doing this on the fly.
02:08:12 We got both the Croy and the Ruby figure in the top right.
02:08:13 All right, now go another two seconds.
02:08:16« There he is. Croy disappeared and Ruby in front of him.
02:08:23« Right.
02:08:24 And Croy backs out of the scene all together
02:08:27 as time goes by.
02:08:27 There’s another second. Go second more.
02:08:30 He, all right, he still isn’t sprinting.
02:08:34 You can see Croy again.
02:08:34« Right.
02:08:34« And you can see, now one thing I want to point out in this picture is you see to the left, there’s Fritz right.
02:08:43 But he’s way ahead, way ahead of Leavelle and everybody. He’s given every everybody’s got you know, this is kind of like a parade.
02:08:51 No, this is not security.
02:08:53 This is theater.
02:08:53 Okay, another second.
02:08:55 Okay, still Jack still standing there.
02:09:00 Right.
02:09:02 You know, he’s not running in from the ramp.
02:09:06 He’s not running in from the TV cameras.
02:09:08 He’s still in the mix.
02:09:08 All right, let’s go another second.
02:09:10 He’s moving forward ever so slightly.
02:09:14 Now,
02:09:14 the important thing I want to point out here is I’m going to move away from Ruby for one second.
02:09:20 Now there’s an enormous flanking thing here.
02:09:22 The car should be parked between Fritz and Oswald.
02:09:29 Okay, that’s where the car should be.
02:09:31 The car is not there.
02:09:33 And this is how Oswald got killed.
02:09:36 The car is, they should not have had to walk this far.
02:09:40 This is not a perp walk.
02:09:40 This is…they’re worried about his security.
02:09:45 Fritz goes all the way over here and you can’t see it in this particular video.
02:09:51 But there’s a video I could show you another day.
02:09:54 When Ruby’s gun goes off.
02:09:54 Fritz does not turn around.
02:09:57 I Don’t think you can see it in this video but it’s it’s kind of incredible because police officers are trained to react at the sound of a shot.
02:10:06 And Fritz demonstrably holds his head in completely the opposite direction for a couple of seconds after Ruby takes his shot.
02:10:16 That’s not the reaction of a lawman. Okay.
02:10:18 See, even now, he’s not looking at them.
02:10:22 He’s still looking at the car and see where the car is. The car is hitting Ruby in the butt. How many people here knew Ruby was hit by a car? Okay.
02:10:31 Now my point is the car.
02:10:34 The guy in the car is frantic.
02:10:37 Because he is late to his assignment.
02:10:40 He’s supposed to be all the way up close to the elevator.
02:10:43 He’s not supposed to be back here.
02:10:45 That’s my presentation on this.
02:10:50 Questions.
02:10:59« Yeah, everyone.
02:11:03 Hey Dan.
« Okay, hear me?
« Yeah.
The people that I interviewed before, a couple years ago, was a congressman who had gotten on the one side of J. Edgar Hoover and had this pissing war with him. And ultimately, Hoover wanted to make up to him and sent Jerry O’Leary to see him to help write an article that would be favorable.
02:11:38 And he spent the weekend with them.
02:11:40 And in the course of that weekend, they got to be friendly.
02:11:45 And in the course of that conversation or conversation one night over wine, he said to O’Leary, how did you get into the basement to get that incredible position so you won the Pulitzer?
02:11:57 And O’Leary told them, well Deke DeLoach got me in.
02:12:03 And then he said, Well, how did Ruby get in, and O’Leary told him that DeLoach got him in too. Now, this is third-hand information, but from a Congressman I have a lot of trust in and, you know, basically, although a lot of the players that were manipulating things that day to get help get Ruby into position, including Patrick Dean, probably, I take that fairly seriously that, you know, that was part of the cover-up and, you know, DeLoach played a role in many different aspects of it.
02:12:39« Yeah.
02:12:41 Yeah DeLoach was a rat.
02:12:42 There’s no two ways about it.
02:12:44 I’ve read plenty on DeLoach in my day.
02:12:46 He was no good.
02:12:49 Thank you, Dan.
02:12:51 Okay, who else has some questions for Bill on the two sections that we just covered?
« Could I ask interject something about Croy?
« Please.
« If the anyone watching is interested in Croy, very interesting things happens.
02:13:17 At the very end of his deposition, Bert Griffin’s asking questions.
02:13:21 And Bert Griffin is wrapped up because he just wanted to ask him about the basement.
02:13:27 And Griffin takes a slight time out he says, Okay, I think that’s all and this is not a quote, he says, Okay, I think that’s all let me just look at my notes, we’ll go off the record, which is very common.
02:13:36 And then they come back on the record.
02:13:39 And the stenographer says, wait a minute, Mr. Griffin, I think this guy has something else to tell us.
02:13:47 And then Croy, very reluctantly is pushed by Griffin, what is it? And he says, Well, I was also at the Tippit murder scene.
02:13:58 And I think he is at the very end of his deposition, says that he was involved in the discovery of a of the wallet, a very controversial wallet, which had no business being there.
02:14:11 And that he said he was handed it by a bystander, he didn’t get his name or description, and so forth.
02:14:18 So that was just tagged on.
02:14:20 And Griffin was completely taken by surprise.
02:14:22 And that was because the stenographer mentioned it.
02:14:27« Just, yeah, well, my memory of that is a little different.
02:14:34 And I’m not sure who’s right, but my memory is similar.
02:14:38 The only difference is that my memory is that Croy added the Tippit information at the end, that he was there that he was, you know, played a prominent role.
02:14:51 And I think he did it literally to get it out of the way so he wouldn’t be asked about it later. He proffered it as a bone because he’s you can see him in the pictures.
02:15:02 He’s there with Helen Markham.
02:15:03 He’s right in the middle of all that.
« Yeah.
02:15:05« And but the thing I don’t think he said Patrick, and you can check me on this is I don’t think he brought up the wallet.
02:15:12 And, and I’ll tell you something else about the whole wallet thing and the whole disinformation thing in general.
02:15:18 The wallet issue, as I understand it never got brought up until late in Croy’s life like literally, he died around 2007 or 2010.
02:15:28 And he sometime in the early 2000s.
02:15:32 He told it, he told the story of all people to our friend, Mr. Jones in New York City, one of the longtime researchers, Jones Harris, who is a really quite a character.
02:15:47 And Jones was the one who got the story from Croy. And the way Croy told the story was, I’m not saying you’re wrong, Patrick, but I’m saying this is my recollection.
02:16:00 My point is simply that Croy was at two of the three,
02:16:07 by his own admission, he’s at two of the biggest scenes.
02:16:10 And then he throws in this story about the wallet and he throws in the story about the wallet after the admission by Hosty of there being a wallet at the scene, and it being published in Dale Myers’ his book, and I’m starting to wonder if Croy isn’t one of the people who is in on the hit,
02:16:26 and he’s still throwing confusion into the game? Yeah, because there’s another guy I’d like to discuss if I have time, but I really bought the story of Robert Barrett on the wallet.
02:16:36 Okay, I wanted to talk about the Tippit shooting.
02:16:39 But I’m going to have to leave it, I think to the handouts, because there’s more I want to do.
02:16:45 And we only got time for one more presentation, you know?
« I’m not sure I remember that?
« Yeah, well, I’m not sure you did.
02:16:52 But yeah, but all I’m saying is, there’s two people that are really prone to throwing stuff into the game, and they’re one of them Croy and. Another one is Barrett.
02:17:00 And I really put my reputation on the line with both those guys.
02:17:04 And I think I got a little bruised as a result.
02:17:05 I’m not sure I believe what Croy says, I’m not sure I believe what Barrett says about the wallet.
02:17:12 So you know, it’s a very interesting discussion. I do think the wallet plays a role because there’s a photo of it.
02:17:22 And I think the wallet is very similar to the Oswald wallet, and it’s in my whole Oswald Westbrook presentation is in the handouts, as a PowerPoint.
02:17:33 And I really urge you guys to look at it because the PowerPoint, it’s got the pictures and the breakdown, you’ll really enjoy it.
02:17:41 But what I’d like to end with is a few minutes of my analysis of the ten points they hung Oswald on.
02:17:48 And I also wanted to end with my analysis of the Special Services Bureau and how most of these cops were cross designated with Army Intelligence.
02:17:56« Real quick, Bill before we move forward, Malcolm asked a question he’d like me to ask you in the comment section.
02:18:06 So our chat log says Could you ask Bill if the two car horns heard split seconds before Oswald was shot in the DPD basement were signals?
« Well, you know what, this is something we were chatting about this right here at Project JFK about a month or two ago and Bart Camp was arguing with me, I think they might have been signals and Bart’s going no, no, they weren’t signals.
02:18:28 And I enjoyed it.
02:18:34 But I remembered it because Bart has spent thousands of hours on this stuff.
02:18:39 You don’t just brush off Bart, uh-uh bad idea.
02:18:40 I think what we’re hearing is the cops trying to get to Oswald and Graves and Leavelle.
02:18:51 And they’re being blocked as that diagram
02:18:55 and the picture in the video shows you by all these people who are on the other side of the rail.
02:19:00 This is and I’ve read this somewhere too and I’m hoping to document they were beeping their horns you hear it two or three times. They’re saying get out of the way.
02:19:10 I’m trying to pick up the prisoner.
02:19:11 And in fact, you see Jack Ruby get hit in the ass after he shot Oswald. I mean, isn’t that incredible? Yeah, Jack Ruby got hit by a car right after he assassinated, you know, the man who killed the president.
02:19:27 I didn’t know that.
02:19:28 But what I’m saying is most of us have not sat down and watched these videos because we didn’t think they were important.
02:19:34 And I didn’t know that there was a good diagram out there.
02:19:38 I had that funky diagram that I showed you all that shows Western Union and stuff, but it’s really hard to read a lot of those numbers, you know, and now with the one that John Armstrong brought forward, you can really figure out who’s standing where. Makes a big difference.
02:19:54« Okay, speaking of which, I noticed that some of the numbers on the colored, not the black and white, but the color diagram, some of those numbers are hard to read, yeah if you have a better copy where the numbers are really legible, please email that to me.
02:20:12 So I can put it up on the site for people to see.
« I will look to see if I can find a better version.
02:20:17 And I want people to know that the funky version is done subsequently.
02:20:22 And the funny thing with the funky version is it has all these lines that draw in additional numbers and placement.
02:20:28 Because some of them you can’t read.
02:20:33 I don’t know if we’ll ever be able to read all the numbers.
02:20:34 I don’t know if there is a better copy than what John has sent me. So that might be another little marbel for the jar.
02:20:41« Sure.
02:20:42 Okay.
02:20:42 Well, with that we’re gonna go and move on to the next section.
02:20:45 Are You wanting to go on topic five or topic six, Bill?
02:20:50« I wanna go to topic five, but just to make, just to put a cap on it.
02:20:55 Could you go to the very topic 4d and post that online? It’s just it’s so short, it’s really worth looking at.
02:21:00« Yeah, let me let me bring up 4d real quick.
02:21:03 Let me shrink this out of the way.
02:21:13« Okay, this is a report from Roy Lowery.
02:21:17 He was one of the detectives on the scene.
02:21:20 And him and another detective both are of the opinion and they were very volatile about this to the Warren Commission, that WBAP, which is the station that Jerry Hill worked at.
02:21:33 And I’ve always been very suspicious of WBAP. And I just learned this the other day that there was two people pushing this enormous camera that you can actually see in the videos and it’s in the…you may be able to find it in the handouts I gave you, the WBAP TV camera is about six or seven feet tall.
02:21:51 It’s 1963.
02:21:53 And, and when you went up a ramp, they needed help.
02:21:58 And the theory is that there was a third man helping these two guys pushing up the ramp.
02:22:02 And the theory is the third guy helping him was Jack Ruby.
02:22:06 And this was the belief of two of the detectives, including Lowery.
02:22:08 And he said you know the other thing, what was weird about this camera was that it was never went into operation.
02:22:14 The cable was never connected.
02:22:16 And the cap was never taken off it.
02:22:19 Imagine that.
02:22:20 You know, is it possible that WBAP camera was only a theater piece? Just a question.
02:22:26 But Lowery said I’m in the opinion Lowery that Ruby probably entered through the pretext of being with the above mentioned Channel 5 television news.
02:22:35 This is again, this is why I liked Croy, and Barrett statements originally, because these are statements against interest by policemen. Now, maybe Lowrey’s a bad guy too, and just throwing more, you know, smoke into the game, you know.
02:22:51 So this is not an endorsement, but this is how an operation is either uncloaked or shielded. Okay, could we turn to topic five now.
02:23:02« Yep
« And this is the article I’m more proud of than any other and part of the reason is because it took me months to write it.
02:23:19 It really took me months to write it.
02:23:21 And I don’t have time to go through it all.
02:23:23 But this was the I wrote this in 2014.
02:23:26 And this is the article that convinced me, the research to convince me that Oswald didn’t take a shot.
02:23:35 Maybe he was part of the of some kind of operation wittingly or unwittingly.
02:23:39 But he wasn’t taking any shots that day, I don’t believe.
02:23:42 And the reason why.
02:23:44 I think if you go to bottom of page one, I think you wanna keep in mind that.
02:23:52 One.
02:23:54 There was this whole attitude that day, that rather from the Warren Commission by David Belin there’s ten items of evidence and there’s ten items of evidence that prove it.
02:24:07 And I’m going to take you through the ten items of evidence that Belin relied on so heavily.
02:24:11 But keep in mind while you think of all this that Hoover told Bobby Kennedy that Oswald was the shooter by 4 pm that day.
02:24:21 And at the same time, McGeorge Bundy gave the word to the cabinet members who were flying Hawaii that Oswald was the shooter.
02:24:30 And there wasn’t anything really left to do you know that they believe he acted alone.
02:24:37 I mean, what was going on for them to make those kind of statements? And I’ll tell you right now, I think that that, that all they really wanted to do with that moment was calm the nation down, you know, and things turned out that story stayed in place.
02:24:55 Because it was it was a story
02:24:57 that decided was useful, wittingly or unwittingly, once again, but I think that’s central.
02:25:03 Now the top 10 arguments, if you go down to page two, you can skip the photo.
02:25:07 I just want to read for a minute.
02:25:09 The hulls now, the other side says the hulls came from the sixth floor rifle.
02:25:16 Carl Day said he initialed all three hulls at about 1 pm. When he testified the next April, he had to admit he didn’t initial any of them.
02:25:25 And then it came out that when he took pictures of the hulls, he picked up the hulls and then they held open an envelope and Sims dropped them in that envelope was unsealed, and it was unsealed for hours and hours afterwards.
02:25:41 So you can’t trust those hulls. The next part is the fragments in the front seat.
02:25:48 Now the records about the frags. There’s no record showing the limousine was secured in any way.
02:25:55 Between 12:30 and 2:30. reporters and others got close to take a look at it.
02:26:02 A bucket was brought in they washed out the blood.
02:26:05 And then there was no pressing reason to fly back to limo even if they wanted the body so bad.
02:26:11 But they took the limo too, that was the second most important piece of evidence.
02:26:15 And then there’s a … so it’s insecure until it gets to the White House garage.
02:26:19 And even then security is lax.
02:26:21 They find the bullet fragments at 10 o’clock.
02:26:25 When the Secret Service Deputy Chief takes it on himself to do a pre-inspection inspection,
02:26:32 he calls it. Ostensibly because bone and tissue is on the seats.
02:26:37 Well, why do you need an inspection? Why don’t you wait until the forensic lab gets there?
02:26:41 They didn’t wait.
02:26:41 They didn’t get there till one o’clock and there’s no log about what happened between 10 and 1. I don’t think that would have gotten into evidence. Then the magic bullet.
02:26:51 You guys know the magic bullet story.
02:26:54 I don’t need to do that here.
02:26:56 It’s an incredible story.
02:26:58 And Oliver Stone hits it out of the park with Jim D’s help from what I hear. He does a really good job.
02:27:05 On the rifle,
02:27:06 the guy who rips it out of the park is the guy at Project JFK, Brian Edwards. He did the best work on the rifle of anybody I’ve ever met.
02:27:14 And I’ve had the privilege of working with him on a mock trial and a presentation.
02:27:19 And the judge switched from being a non-believer to a believer in our side of the case.
02:27:26 And it was because of Brian.
02:27:28 And one of the biggest pieces that Brian brought to the table was, among many other people, we have much of Brian’s presentation we’ve given to you, you can take it it’s 47 slides, and you can just just ooh and ah, but my favorite is when you take the photo from of the backyard photo of Oswald and you compare it to the photo of the rifle and evidence.
02:27:52 And you realize that the mounts in the photo of the backyard are different from the mounts of the evidence rifle.
02:28:01 So it’s not the same rifle.
02:28:02 You know, if you believe the photo, so whether the photo is real or fake doesn’t really matter.
02:28:08 That just spun my head around.
02:28:10 It’s spun Jim D’s head around and it’s in Oliver Stone’s two-hour movie, I’m happy to say.
02:28:14 And I know it’s because of the presentation Brian did that day because Jim D said that was what stood out for him more than anything else from the mock trial that you know, came out good.
02:28:26 And I have to say I felt much the same way.
02:28:31 The paper bag is one of the greatest shaggy dog stories in history.
02:28:35 And you can walk through it better than I can tell it.
02:28:39 But I don’t know.
02:28:41 One thing I didn’t mention in here that I just want to throw in, is did you all know that a paper bag was mailed to the Paine house with Oswald’s name on it? Oh, rather no different.
02:28:52 It had a different address on it, but it wound up in the dead letter section.
02:28:57 And a note went to the Paine house saying we got something for you to pick up.
02:29:03 And, and it sat in the dead letter section for weeks, it had the wrong address.
02:29:07 And when they opened it, it had a paper bag inside.
02:29:11 I mean, it was just crazy.
02:29:12 Who knows whether that was done to shield or to conduct the operation.
02:29:18 But it’s another crazy item.
02:29:20 The only thing that’s crazier is to have a photo, to have a photographer take photos of the scene and not take a photo of the paper bag that was supposedly there.
I mean. That’s crazy.
02:29:32 That’s completely crazy.
02:29:34 So there’s no custody on the bag.
02:29:37 Then about the revolver? Well, Jerry Hill took custody of revolver when it was supposedly handed to him by Bob Carroll, who was one of Ganaway’s right-hand men over at the Special Services Office.
02:29:49 So I’d have to admit that any argument that the revolver was planted on Oswald would go to the weight of the evidence, rather than admissibility, but you can’t match the bullets fire to Tippit with the revolver.
02:30:06 Even the Warren Commission admitted that you can’t do it.
02:30:09 And the reason why is because there simply…
02:30:14 There’s no good tale of the hulls being the actual hulls. Officer Poe said I initialed the hulls. But when he was told to testify under oath, he couldn’t swear he initialed the halls.
02:30:31 He couldn’t do it.
02:30:32 Jim Leavelle told Joe McBride.
02:30:35 You know, Joe may be on this call for all I know.
02:30:36 He told Joe that the hulls were useless as evidence. And what really threw a spanner into it is when Jerry Hill made a radio call and said the hulls came from a 38 Automatic rather than 38 special.
02:30:48 And you can see pictures right here in this presentation.
02:30:53 The 38 special used by Dallas police.
02:30:56 It says 38 SPL right on him you can’t make that kind of mistake.
02:31:01 And then Hill lied under oath by saying I wasn’t the one who called it out as a 38 automatic, but then he admitted it to Dale Myers
02:31:10 25 years later in 1986.
02:31:10 Hill said 38 stamped on the bottom of it.
02:31:17 I looked on the bottom.
02:31:17 So anyway, Jerry Hill poisoned the well with his lies, with his stories and with the hulls that that were marked or not the hulls that were originally provided to the police.
02:31:29 There’s no way to prove it.
02:31:29 And then point number eight, why did Oswald strike patrolman McDonald with one hand and fire the revolver with the other.
02:31:39 Hill wrote in his report, here’s the proof, dog gone it.
02:31:43 One of the hulls has a hammer mark on the on the perimeter of the revolver, which misfired.
02:31:51 Which is the only reason supposedly McDonald was alive. A great story.
02:31:56 But firearms and tool mark expert for the FBI Cortlandt Cunningham, testified once again against interest to the Warren Commission, he goes, we had nothing to indicate that this weapon’s firing pin had struck the perimeter on any of these cartridges.
02:32:11 In other words, Cunningham called Hill a liar.
02:32:13 And the Warren Commission agreed with Cunningham’s finding. The court would have excluded this evidence.
02:32:19 And so finally, you’re wound up with the picture negative coming from Oswald’s camera.
02:32:24 You could argue about that all day long.
02:32:26 But I know one thing Marina Oswald could never have testified about it because a wife can’t testify against a husband.
02:32:32 If the husband asks her not to.
02:32:32 It’s a privilege, she can’t be made to do it.
02:32:36 And we could talk about those pictures all day long, either.
02:32:39 I’m not satisfied, you’re going to win a case based on those pictures.
02:32:43 And then on the lineups, for the photo IDs where people suggested Oswald, I mean, omg. I’ve got pictures here somewhere, but not in front of me.
02:32:54 But you all remember that Oswald took a shot to the head in that fight.
02:32:58 And he’s got that shot to his head.
02:33:01 and He’s got a dirty t-shirt and a blackened eye. and so any kind of lineup is going to be a little compromised from the start.
02:33:13 Right there.
02:33:14 And then he’s surrounded by detectives in the first two lineups.
02:33:19 Brown sports coat, red vest, knit gray sweater. These are impermissibly suggestive lineups.
02:33:25 They gave Oswald for this one, I think a brown shirt with a hole in the elbow, and dark trousers.
02:33:31 He was angry they wouldn’t give him a jacket to wear like the other men. Detective boyd testified the other men were dressed better than Oswald. Another statement against interest.
02:33:41 The fourth lineup is intriguing and there’s a link right to it.
02:33:45 A YouTube video of Oswald walking with two teenagers and a heavyset Latin man on his way to the lineup, Oswald turns to the camera and calmly expresses his frustration at being forced to be conducted to the suggestive lineup.
02:33:59 And here’s where he’s wearing the white t-shirt, which ain’t all that white.
02:34:04 And the only man who claimed he saw Oswald the sixth floor window, Brennan, was unable to identify him at a lineup later that afternoon.
02:34:12 And at least one major witness who exonerated Oswald, Warren Reynolds who did his best to capture the man who shot Tippit, he changed his tune, but that was after he got shot in the head in a basement a few weeks after the assassination.
02:34:28 I mean, it’s just an incredible story, of these lineups. These lineups would not have gone anywhere.
02:34:33 It would have been a laugh fest for the jury.
02:34:36 I don’t think the judge would let it go, frankly to the jury.
02:34:39 I think the judge would have thrown it out.
02:34:41 Can you imagine bringing these 10 pieces of evidence to a jury? So I want to close with a five or ten minute discussion of topic six.
02:34:52 If you could call that up real quick. Tell me when you got it, David.
02:35:02 I think you got it there.
02:35:04 Yeah, that’s great.
02:35:10 All right.
02:35:12 Yeah.
02:35:12 This is 12 bullet points on the real or imagined sins of Lumpkin and Ganaway. They’re my two great villains.
02:35:21 And you know, I could be, I could be con persuaded otherwise.
02:35:24 But I consider them part of a suspicious small group that includes Westbrook who allegedly left the department after, he was also in charge of Westbrook.
02:35:36 He did the investigations of other cops and internal affairs.
02:35:39 He did hirings, you know. He did the investigations before people were hired.
02:35:44 You know, he was like, you know, the, the, the intelligence guy, you know, who is spying on the Dallas cops.
02:35:50 He’s head of personnel.
02:35:53 He’s internal affairs.
02:35:55 And who’s he working with Jerry Hill, who used to be, who was a former police reporter, and worked for WBAP, the station I don’t like.
02:36:02 And also Jerry you know worked directly under Westbrook that day.
02:36:08 He was assigned there the month before.
02:36:10 And when he was a police reporter, he had his office in a jail cell.
02:36:14 He was…He loved the cops.
02:36:16 And he finally became a cop.
02:36:18 And he wasn’t a very high-ranking cop.
02:36:20 And he knew Jack Ruby.
02:36:22 He was a big buddy of Jack Ruby’s Reserve Sergeant Kenneth Croy. He’s at two of the assassination scenes.
02:36:30 He’s the guy who allegedly finds a Tippit wallet. He was certainly on the scene.
02:36:33 And he certainly didn’t report it until 40 years later, if he ever did find it and he was suspected by the Warren Commission as assisting Jack Ruby. And then of course, Butler, Ganaway’s partner, who interviewed Ruby back in 1950.
02:36:47 Weisberg and others believe Butler gave the order to bring down Oswald prematurely before the Escort vehicle was in place, which aided Ruby in getting the position to shoot Oswald. So I think these men should be treated as suspects.
02:37:01 And there’s other small groups like this, I can identify at a later time.
02:37:05 I don’t trust Mr. Sawyer.
02:37:05 I don’t trust Mr. Jones.
02:37:08 And when I realized that they were part of that 800-page report.
02:37:12 That’s basically the Warren report for the Dallas Police.
02:37:16 You can find it by the way, box 14.
02:37:20 At the look for the Dallas Police materials.
02:37:23 There’s only a couple boxes of Dallas materials.
02:37:27 And I think it’s also commission document 81.
02:37:29 I’ve read Steve Thomas tipped me off.
02:37:32 You can find it somewhere in the 81 series.
02:37:34 But it’s 800 pages and it doesn’t scan well.
02:37:39 It’s really blurry, but you can read it.
02:37:41 But it’s hard to do research in it it’s more laborious.
02:37:44 And so I consider it now another possible goldmine.
02:37:49 I’d like to find a cleaner copy of that. Now finally, at my wrap up here. I really got like five minutes here.
02:37:55 Here’s my bullet points on Lumpkin and Ganaway. They were both high-ranking Dallas officials that were also members of army intelligence.
02:38:05 Both men were present at that operational plan for the motorcade in Cury’s office the day before the assassination.
02:38:12 They both played central roles that resulted in Oswald being named as a suspect.
02:38:17 Ganaway set up the search.
02:38:19 I mean, Lumpkin set up the search.
02:38:21 He was the guy who set up the search of the entire building.
02:38:24 And Ganaway is the guy who, you know, fingered him for the Houston paper and said, you know, we got a tip that he’s talked the FBI six days before, a blunder on his part. And which makes you wonder and he outs him as the guy, the only guy who wasn’t picked up by the roll call, which was a dirty trick.
02:38:47 You know, both
02:38:48 and Butler, who was Ganaway’s partner for many years, was the one in charge of the downtown jail at the time of the transfer of Oswald when he was shot by Ruby.
02:38:57 Lumpkin was in the pilot car three minutes ahead of the motorcade.
02:39:00 It made a suspicious stop talking to a policeman unreported in any of the police affidavits, right in front of the Book Depository in the moments before the assassination.
02:39:10 Number three.
02:39:12 In the moments before the assassination, Lumpkin ordered the sealing to the book depository, the sealing proved to be very ineffective.
02:39:18 Not all the doors were covered.
02:39:20 Herbert Sawyer, the officer allegedly watching the doors after the sealing, was the one who called in at 12:44 and got the radio call going with an unknown white man of nondescript build, told him the shooter was slender, white male, about thirty, five foot 10, 165. Sawyer was with the Special Services Bureau.
02:39:40 His boss was Ganaway. Ganaway used to be the head of the Special Services Bureau back in 1952.
02:39:47 And I attached, I gave you a blown-up shot of that it’s in the handouts.
02:39:53 So Lumpkin was a graduate as the chief and Ganaway was his successor, if you will.
02:40:04 A Sawyer was accused of corruption a few years later and resigned from the Dallas Police in disgrace.
02:40:09 Right, bullet point number four.
02:40:11 Jerry Hill went to Westbrook in the personnel division just weeks before November 22nd. Before the, between the two men, they had access to all the personnel files.
02:40:23 Westbrook was the decision maker on hiring, firing, discipline, internal affairs.
02:40:28 More importantly, neither man had any business being at a crime scene.
02:40:31 But Hill is one of the two men credited with finding the shells on the sixth floor and his photograph leaning out of the window for the crime scene unit to come upstairs.
02:40:41 The official report indicates that homicide officers found the shells in the Book Depository when in fact it was Hill or lake Luke Mooney. Number five, Lumpkin then instructed Revill to organize his team against the east wall and make a systematic search, a member of Revill’s searching party found the rifle.
02:41:03 Why was Lumpkin making these various decisions, because Lumpkin was the head of the Service Division?
02:41:08 This is a big-ticket item.
02:41:10 This included Dowdy’s ID Bureau. This unit got the tip at 3;15. There was the cards in Oswald’s wallet identifying him as Hidell.
02:41:19 The rifle of course was mail-ordered in the name of Hidell.
02:41:23 This section also ran fingerprints, crime scene, HQ, warrants, property and the Records Bureau.
02:41:29 In other words, Lumpkin controlled the entire crime scene process and the subsequent processing.
02:41:33 In other words, he controlled the evidence. Lumpkin’s role in taking Truly to Fritz right after Fritz’s arrival at the Book Depository with the story, I don’t know if it means anything.
02:41:45 This is Truly, but I’m missing a man, a young fellow named lee Oswald. Truly was clutching a piece of paper.
02:41:52 He had already obtained from a phone call to Aiken at the warehouse, where the employee files were kept. And he wrote down Oswald’s age, height, weight, phone, address from his application form. Five foot nine, 150. That’s the heaviest Oswald, Oswald would like to exaggerate his weight by about 10 pounds.
02:42:10 He was certainly no 165, and you know what, he wasn’t 150 either.
02:42:14 And he says he lives you know, with the Paines, no not a bad address to use all things considered.
02:42:20 He wasn’t going to give away any other address. The Houston Chronicles report, I’ve talked about this. Ganaway flags him as the only man who couldn’t be accounted for. That night Ganaway led a group of officers to visit the home of Book Depository employee Joe Molina, who was singled out a long time ago by Communist Party leader and FBI informant. If I didn’t make it clear Lowery, when Oswald left for Mexico City that was a day Lowery testified in Washington DC that he was an FBI informant and has been one since World War II. He was a Herbert Philbrick of Dallas.
02:42:58 Was Oswald supposed to know this, you know, maybe that’s why Oswald wasn’t in town if he was out of town.
02:43:05 Another interesting coincidence, I got a lot more to say on that subject.
02:43:09 Molina’s name is a possible suspect got in the papers, he wound up suing the cops for defamation. That didn’t go anywhere.
02:43:16 Revill said he got the list of employees he got from Ganaway, with the wrong address of Harvey Lee Oswald at 605 Elsbeth, which Brooks Laplante is going to present on one of these days, I know he’s got done great research on that whole thing.
02:43:33 This address came from detective Carroll, or detective Taylor or some other officers involved in the arrest.
02:43:39 The list a number of people not in the building.
02:43:42 I mean, so how can you say this is the list they’re working with mid-afternoon? Even Allen Dulles claimed he wanted to know the story on the Elsbeth address, which was probably parked in the Army’s Harvey Oswald intelligence file for some time, and Revill could have got it from Army Intelligence either before or on 11/22.
Revill’s response for Dulles and the Warren Commission in May, was he got it orally from Carol. Carol again, the guy who got the revolver right who misread the 602 Elsbeth address on Oswald’s library card when he looked at Oswald’s wallet from back over his shoulder.
02:44:21 Carol’s sitting in the front seat, so it’s at least credible.
02:44:23 But note how the Harvey Lee Oswald’s always in there. And Harvey’s file was either named Harvey or Harvey Lee, I can’t remember which. Carol did not misread that. There was all kinds of info in the wallet but none of it with that name.
02:44:37 It either said Lee Oswald or Alec Hidell. Also note how the Warren Commission refused to address the Harvey Lee Oswald on the list.
02:44:46 Only the 605 El as I said was In Ganaway’s criminal intelligence unit came up with the revolver allegedly Oswald’s at the theater.
02:44:57 Molina was accused by Ganaway’s team on November 22nd as a possible communist or subversive. And believing Molina was a friend of Oswald. Molina knew Oswald was, but he didn’t have a relationship with him.
02:45:10 One spooky fact is that prayer man, I don’t take a stand on prayer man.
02:45:15 But he was standing,
02:45:18 the prayer man figure was standing next to Molina in the notorious photos and Oswald on the first floor.
02:45:24 He might have been prayer man, might not of. But is that why Oswald’s hanging out on the first floor is to keep an eye on Molina or to keep an eye on Bill Shelley. Which is another story in itself. Was Molina being intimidated in some way? I earlier said that Molina sued the police. He also sued the radio station, but that didn’t go anywhere, as I recall.
02:45:43 And I might be mistaken, actually, about whether he sued the police.
02:45:48 In any case, none of his lawsuits went anywhere,
02:45:52 to my information.
02:45:53 Number eight, Peter Dale Scott said in 2010, The coincidence that the 488th Army Intelligence reserve helped generate the false Marina story as well as the fall Stringfellow report where Stringfellow is calling Florida you know, writing Florida on November 22nd and saying, you know Oswald with the Cubans and, you know, it sounds like you know, he’s trying he’s trying to start a war as far as I’m concerned.
02:46:19 Scott points to a number of false reports about Oswald’s alleged rifle.
02:46:22 And specifically, if you stay there for a minute. Specifically reports falsely that Marina presumed Oswald’s rifle in Dallas to be the rifle he owned in Russia. Marina’s actual words before mistranslation were quite innocuous.
02:46:42 I can’t describe the gun because the rifle to me is like all rifles.
02:46:46 The interpreter who supplied the story Ilya Mamontov was selected as a result of a phone call between Lumpkin and Jack Crichton. I believe his name is pronounced Crichton. Crichton was a Republican governor candidate against John Connally, believe it or not in 64. And we’ve already seen, well a lot of us know I should say that Crichton commanded the 488th and Lumpkin including with being the deputy police chief was also deputy commander of the 488th under Crichton. Scott points out and this is the quote I love so much.
02:47:23 That Stringfellow’s intelligence section, he forms the 112th and it got to Florida.
02:47:27 That information obtained from Oswald revealed he had defected to Cuba in 59 and is a card-carrying member of the Communist Party.
02:47:37 The cable sent in November 22nd from the Fourth Army to the US strike command in Florida.
02:47:43 That’s the base poised for a possible retaliatory attack against Cuba.
02:47:46 And there you can read the little cable.
02:47:49 Stringfellow’s boss is Ganaway. Ganaway is a member of army Intel reserve.
02:47:54 Later Ed Coyle, who was himself a warrant officer of the 112th. He testified to the assassination records review board that all the officers of the Dallas Police intelligence section were in army intelligence.
02:48:10 Actually, they were almost certainly in the 488th unit of Dallas. Jack Crichton the head of the 488s revealed in oral history there was about a hundred men in that unit, about 40 or 50 of them were from the Dallas Police Department and Russ Baker of course gets the credit, family of secrets, page 122. Bullet point 10. It’s February 26.
02:48:31 In an effort to resolve the chain of possession of the backyard photo, Lumpkin forgets he made multiple choice copies and makes them available for the next couple days.
carl Carl Day tells on him, which I think was a mistake by Carl. And you and we could quibble about this because he says 24 or more of them were placed on a table for law enforcement. Anyone could have got a hold of them.
02:48:57 Now I first said this directly violated the police order issued by November 22nd, that photographs in the JFK case were to be disseminated only on authority of the J of the chief’s office.
02:49:09 Now Lumpkin was a deputy chief, not the chief, but maybe you know, maybe he had authority, maybe not.
02:49:15 But days later, even the Hang dogs over at the Warren Commission, were asking the FBI for info on the chain of possession on the backyard photo, which was apparently later sold to life by Marina and her business manager for five thousand bucks.
02:49:29 But you see this kind of evidence a lot.
02:49:31 And this is kind of where I want to close. You can read the last two points for yourself.
02:49:36 They’re a little more complicated.
02:49:38 They’re all fun.
02:49:38 They all go back to the Lumpkin, Ganaway problem.
02:49:40 But you know, we should wrap it up.
02:49:43 This is a live area for investigation.
02:49:49 I’m not saying these six guys did it or were in on the hit, but they they’re suspect characters for all the reasons I just said. So thank you for your time.
02:50:00 I appreciate it.
All right.
02:50:04 Well, if anybody has any questions about the sections that Bill just covered, you know, speak up and ask your questions.
02:50:08 Anyone want to go.
« David.
« Go ahead I’m, we’re here.
02:50:25« David.
02:50:28« Yeah.
02:50:29« This, can I ask have some questions that relates to how Ruby got in the basement?
« Yeah, go ahead.
« It’s very interesting.
02:50:41 in 1978, Jack, Revill told the House assassinations committee that he did a secret investigation of, how Ruby got in the basement and they and they came to the conclusion he came down the stairway to a door that was usually locked.
02:50:59 And it may have been unlocked that day.
02:51:01 Do you think that’s credible? Or do you think that’s the Dallas PD just coming up with more misinformation?
« That’s a good question.
02:51:13 I don’t know. Whenever I get a tip from a cop that goes against their interest.
02:51:17 You know, I’ve been reminded yet again, that it might be a favor or it might be poison, you know. That map has three or four different ways to get in.
02:51:28 I like the notion that he just found an unopened door and walked in, because there wasn’t a lot of time to fool around.
02:51:34 But it seems to me that, you know, if you’re walking inside an unopened door, and you walk in, somebody’s got your back and somebody is waiting for you on the other side of the door to help be your guy. This operation happened in four minutes.
02:51:46« Bill we’ve got a question from Greg Malkoff again, and he wants me to ask you
02:51:51 why don’t you mention Allen Dulles in your book, great book, state secret?
« Well, you know, I did my Allen Dulles due diligence
02:52:03 in the next book. I wrote state secret to try to understand the impersonation story.
02:52:10 I mean, I was trying to write a book about the cover-up in the frame up.
02:52:14 But that’s where it led me.
02:52:16 You know, I would never try to write a book to solve this case.
02:52:19 I just think, you know, you find your best things when you’re looking for something else.
02:52:22 And with that said, you know, the Allen Dulles story came up when I least expected it. I wound up writing the 12 chapters of the the 12, who built the Oswald legend as a way to try to understand Oswald when I was writing state secret.
02:52:40 So it’s really kind of the back story to state secret.
02:52:41 I’m not gonna, I don’t think I’m gonna write another book on this subject.
02:52:45 If I do, it’ll be a very short series at best. I’d rather do what I just did.
02:52:51 And I’d rather write help write screenplays, you know, or help people write screenplays, because, you know, just most of us don’t read books.
02:52:59 To be fair, most of us watch.
02:52:59 And it’s a lot quicker, you know, I can’t stand watch, listen to a podcast, I’d rather read a book because it’s faster.
02:53:06 But that’s not the way most people get their information.
02:53:08 Most people need to see it, you know, and I get that.
02:53:12 It’s like when you’re hunting, you know, you don’t read a book when you’re trying to hunt.
02:53:15 You’re watching.
02:53:18 And the most powerful things we can do with the public, I think in this case, is do what Oliver Stone and Jim are doing right now, you know, let people see it.
02:53:28 And to that end, the Allen Dulles story leapt out at me, because it answered the question to me about the motivation of the Paines.
02:53:36 I really do think that, and I talk about in my book, that Ruth Paine and Michael Paine were asked by you know, somebody like Michael’s mother, because they were good friends, you know, keep an eye on this guy, Oswald. And in fact, I go so far as to say, you know, the Paines moved, you know, but within blocks of Marguerite’s house in 59 right before Oswald landed. I think they got sent there to keep an eye on Oswald and probably unwittingly. And then just stayed because it was a good job.
02:54:09 It was a good gig.
02:54:09 You know, it was a family affair.
02:54:11 Bell Helicopter. Why people aren’t researching Bell Helicopter all day? I don’t know.
02:54:15 Because I tell you.
02:54:17 There’s great documents out there about Bell Helicopter and Michael Paine and the security problems there. The CIA and the FBI relied on Bell Helicopter for all kinds of things.
02:54:27 And the Cubans were always there trying to steal information.
02:54:30 It’s a hot topic, all of Dallas was a hot topic.
02:54:32 It’s like the military industrial complex of the United States at that time. That’s where all the secrets are.
02:54:40 Everybody’s going to Dallas, you know, and with that said, you know, I’m of that school thinking that, you know, the whole idea was to make sure Jack Kennedy didn’t leave alive that day.
02:54:50 If this thing hadn’t worked, you know, on Elm Street, something might happen at the trade mart. I never thought I’d come to this point in this case, but after seeing the shoddy way of those 10 points of evidence, you know, all that about the bullets and the hulls and no chain of possession.
02:55:11 I mean, that is the kind of thing that smacks to me of an operation.
02:55:17 You know, and a frame up.
« Would that same principle apply to Oswald in the sense that he would not have been allowed to leave the basement alive, or were there anything that hinted at the contingency? Had Ruby’s, one shot to the groin not been a lethal shot?
« Absolutely, they were trying to having a court hearing for him like on Wednesday, or something. I don’t think he would have lived till Wednesday, they would have gotten him another way.
02:55:42 If this had failed, then he would have died another way. It might have been poison the next time, you know. But he was he was not going to live.
02:55:48 And I think what happened in this case, everybody’s got their own theories and mine’s just a theory.
02:55:55 But I think it was a broken operation.
02:55:57 I think he was supposed to die in the theater.
02:55:59 The cops came up through the balcony.
02:56:01 And I write about this.
02:56:03 …The Oswald figure busted into the balcony.
02:56:11 And so they went up to the balcony, and he wasn’t there.
02:56:14 And then they came charging down the balcony, you know, and two of them sprained their ankles really badly, you know, or tore tendons. I mean, it was a disaster coming down the stairs.
02:56:23 And I think Oswald did something really smart.
02:56:25 I think, you know, he punched that cop, right in the face.
02:56:30 After sitting there till the last possible minute.
02:56:32 That’s the only reason he didn’t get killed.
02:56:34 Because it caused total mayhem, and he might or might not have whipped out a gun.
02:56:41 But the fact is, he had everybody in the clinch, and he did something sudden, and they couldn’t shoot him because they were afraid they’d kill each other.
02:56:50 So I mean, I actually think what Oswald did was very smart.
02:56:54« All right, does anybody else have any questions they’d like to ask Bill.
02:57:02 We’re kind of coming to a close now.
02:57:04 So anybody has questions? Please speak up.
02:57:06« I got one.
02:57:09 I got one.
02:57:09« Go ahead, Brian.
02:57:11« Hey, Bill Simpich.
« Hey, thanks for the kind words on that.
02:57:16 I’ll put the check in the mail for you in a little bit.
02:57:18« You did the heavy lifting.
02:57:23 That’s all I got to say.
02:57:24« Right.
02:57:24« I think Brian, put 100 hours into the research.
02:57:31 I’m not sure about that number.
02:57:33 But I thought you said 112.
02:57:33« Well I have I have my own thoughts on this.
02:57:39 But I’d like to hear what you think about this.
« Yeah, I don’t pretend to be the expert here.
02:57:43 I’m not trying to solve this case.
02:57:44 …
02:57:46« But the DPD’s investigation, the inside the TSBD, the Tippit,
02:57:53 and then the Oswald shooting, do you think that it was? I know they’re Dallas cops,
02:58:01 and I always get hammered for this, you know, well, that’s the way they did it back then.
02:58:06 But the basic forensic evidence collection preservation has been standard since the time of Sherlock Holmes. Do you think that the DPD, the higher-ranking officers in the DPD were told to just not do a good job because they knew it wasn’t going to go to trial? Or what are your thoughts on that?
« Well, I mean, you can’t go to trial on this
« Right.
« So I mean, I think part of what happened is it was…I think they realized by two o’clock it was a broken operation, because Oswald was coming home alive.
02:58:45« Right.
02:58:47« You know, it must have been a nightmare for the police department.
« But as far as them botching the crime scene and the book depository and collecting the hulls and not collecting the hulls and no paper bag and, you know, the rifle disappearing out of the building for three or four hours.
02:59:04 I mean, if they would have done that on every homicide case, they never would have had anybody in their jail.
02:59:13 So, well you know they did get away with a lot of stuff.
02:59:19« You know, one thing that really stunned me was learning how many African American people were killed in custody, with 5,000, 10,000 people protesting outside in the 1950s and early 60s, in Dallas, Texas. You know, protests that you know, that, you can only find on microfilm because of Captain Fritz’s bad business, you know, which led to a large number of these people being exonerated, I believe, after they’ve died.
02:59:47 I mean, so Fritz was a horror and so they were able to play fast and loose.
02:59:53 You know, and the DA, I mean, Bill Alexander, I think was a crook.
02:59:56 So there was some funny business going on, but this business is so bad.
03:00:00 Yeah, that I agree with you.
03:00:04 I really, I always try to go over backward to stick up for the cops whenever I can.
03:00:10 Because all of us, you know, want to go after the cops and you know the problem, Brian, you’re a former officer, you know the problem, you know, just blindly striking out against one side or the other.
03:00:21 And you got to remember, both sides make, do bad things, and both sides make mistakes.
03:00:26 And you know, you got to try to draw a line between the difference.
03:00:29 And I think here
03:00:30 what. Happened was, this is a job that came from the Joint Chiefs of Staffs. I agree with John Newman. I’ve come longer in the last eight years on this.
03:00:43 I you know, I think Oliver Stone had it back in 91.
03:00:46 You know, he thought Lemnitzer was in on the mix.
03:00:48 You know, and Lemnitzer was a guy who was the subject of Seven Days in May. People thought it, but Jack Kennedy let the White House out to let them film Seven Days in May because he thought the military was out of control.
03:01:03 And I think they were too and so does John Newman.
03:01:07 I asked John if he thinks they still are.
03:01:09 And he doesn’t.
03:01:09 And I tend to agree, because I think you know, for a variety of reasons, the military has changed in the last 50 years.
03:01:17 I don’t agree with a lot of its policies.
03:01:20 But that’s not the point.
03:01:20 And I think this is a military hit. I don’t think you have a crossfire, which I think take Thompson and others have proven occurs like that with such deadly accuracy,
03:01:31 without having some of the best shooters in the world involved.
03:01:34 The CIA you know, had its paramilitary taken away from them after the Bay of Pigs.
03:01:39 And they were fighting to get it back in November 63.
03:01:43 They had very little skill in paramilitary.
03:01:46 So I give, I would accord roles to people like Bill Harvey, you know, people like Lemnitzer, and I would accord roles to people on the ground. You gotta have people on the ground, and who better than people who work with Army Intelligence.
03:02:02 Right.
We’ve gotten almost no documents from Army Intelligence. We got a million documents from the FBI and the CIA. Literally, but we got almost nothing from any of the military intelligence services, or the NSA and the Secret Service. The Secret Service went so far as to destroy their documents.
03:02:19 So I think that’s the place to look, you know, the Secret Service or the bodyguards.
03:02:24 I think there was bad apples there.
03:02:26 I think there was bad apples, among the Joint Chiefs of Staff crowd, specifically Curtis LeMay.
03:02:30 And, I think you’ve got bad apples in the Dallas Police.
03:02:35 And I named three to six that I think we ought to look at.
03:02:37« Yeah and I’m sure you’ve seen that picture of the colorized picture of Oswald or whoever the hell it is being brought out of the theater and Bob, Carroll’s holding the pistol, right? still in his hand, and he’s got his hand over the cylinder all over the metal.
03:02:53 And the only thing he’s not touching is the wood.
03:02:55 And so I’m wondering, you know, how would you ever get fingerprints off of that to prove anything? So I mean, that’s the reason I asked, do you think this was botched from the.. Were these guys told, hey, we don’t care what the hell kind of investigation you’re running? Because it ain’t going to go anywhere? Anyway.
03:03:12 So, you know, I just, I just want to hear your thoughts about, you know, the cops.
03:03:18 And they I, you know I think personally, I think the street guys, I think they did the best they could.
03:03:22 But there’s always the there’s always the people that in the military, or law enforcement, you take orders from the guy above you.
03:03:30 And if you don’t, then there’s the door.
03:03:33 So I think I think that’s part of the problem was, was some of these guys were trying to do the best job they could.
03:03:39 And they were told by, you know, higher ranking officers.
03:03:42 Well, don’t worry about that.
03:03:43 We’ll take care of that later.
03:03:45 So, you know, well,
« That’s a great observation about Bob Carroll.
03:03:49 I’ve never noticed that particular aspect until now.
03:03:52 And that you’re right.
03:03:52 How could a professional officer in the Special Services Bureau, part of the criminal intelligence unit make a rookie mistake like handling the metal part of a revolver. And only a police officer, and maybe a sharper attorney than me would have noticed that from the photo, I don’t look at photos enough.
03:04:13 I’m not very observant.
03:04:13 I get most of my information from documents, not from watching, which is, explains my bias towards things in life, why I’m a lawyer, and not an archaeologist, for example.
03:04:23 You know, I don’t look well enough.
03:04:26 You just did.
03:04:28 And that’s the point.
03:04:28 And to your other point, I would say I agree with you, in large part, I think many of those people, men and women did the best they could, but I also think that you had bad apples, like Jerry Hill handling the key evidence, you know, and, you know, Jerry Hill, you know, waving out the window at 12:55 saying you know, this, is where the hulls are, you know, he’s now got effective control of the crime scene, right.
03:04:55« You know, he should have never been there in the first place.
03:04:59« No, he had no business being there.
03:05:01 He’s there.
03:05:01 He’s, he’s there five minutes after he gets out of his car.
03:05:03 He’s found the hull. He gets there about 12:48. You know, I mean, that’s what I’m good at is, you know, watching the timeline.
03:05:11 And so I’m with you.
03:05:14 I think the death of Tippit for me, was like, you know, was like the signal to the cops, that we got to do everything we can to shut this case down because our guy got killed here.
03:05:26 …and a lot of the officers were not bashful and saying they cared more about their guy than they did about the president.
03:05:32 And, you know, Kennedy was a polarizing guy, he was a lot like Trump.
03:05:37 You know, I’ve heard a lot of people say in the last two years, they’d like to see Trump dead.
03:05:42 You know, that’s not right.
03:05:44 You know, but I know I’ve said terrible things about Trump, you know, and here we are, you know, people said the same kind of things about Jack Kennedy.
03:05:50« Yeah.
03:05:52 Well thanks, Bill.
03:05:53 I’ll send you the check.
03:05:54 You want PayPal or you want to check?
« No, no, I just want another slideshow like that
03:06:00 last one.
03:06:00 That was something.
03:06:00« It looks like Paul’s got his hand up.
03:06:06 Paul, did you have a question for Bill?
« I do.
03:06:09 Hi, Bill.
03:06:09 Were you able to connect the 488s to the Joint Chiefs or to ACSI?
« No, yeah.
03:06:18 And, frankly, I think people like yourself and, and Steve Thomas and others, you know, are the best on that. You know, I’m weak on the 488th. You know, I really follow my lead from researchers like you, that have done such great work.
03:06:31 What people tell me is that the 488 was kind of like a vest pocket unit for Crichton.
03:06:37 You know, it was kind of like a plaything that he could do what he wanted and there wasn’t a lot of paper on it.
03:06:44 That makes the most sense to me.
03:06:46 I don’t even know that Crichton was in on this hit. I think it was more Lumpkin’s than Crichton.
03:06:50 Crichton strikes me more as a straight conservative politician, you know, who, you know, was able to get things done.
03:06:58 But I’m not convinced that he would have killed the president.
03:07:00 You know, I’m not convinced he wouldn’t.
03:07:02 But you know, this guy’s running for governor.
03:07:06 That always made an impact so it.
03:07:12 Funny.
03:07:12« Thank you.
03:07:13« Of course Republicans weren’t a big thing.
03:07:15 I mean, it was mostly Democrats, you know, it was before the southern state strategy really got rolling with Goldwater, you know, and Nixon in particular.
03:07:23 So it’s, it’s funny you almost had to run as a Democrat. When he ran as a Republican, it was more symbolic.
03:07:29« So there was that there is that peculiar connection with Branstetter being assigned essentially to the 488th by his handler at ACSI.
« Yeah, and then he meets Davo Joli, you know, in Acapulco, after he goes to what, they both run to Dallas, and they both run to Mexico.
03:07:54 And then they both have, you know, banana daiquiris.
03:07:56 And they talk about, you know, what a crazy world it is.
03:08:00« Right
« And he’s in Angleton’s back pocket, you know, and frankly furious, because of you know, their leader almost got assassinated by their right-wing crazies and Jack Kennedy’s backing de Gaulle up and they’re not liking it.
03:08:22 There’s a lot going on.
03:08:24« Thank you Bill.
« Thank you.
03:08:27« Hey, Bill, this Is Casey Quinlan, can you hear me?
« Yeah.
« I just wanna, I know, we’re probably gonna end here pretty quick,
03:08:36 but thank you a million for the for the amount of research that you have done over the years.
03:08:43 And just the amount of information that you have provided us tonight, with is unbelievable.
03:08:49 And it gives us an opportunity to go out and do some further research.
03:08:55 I want to hit on one thing and then your introduction by getting into the SIGINT and the intelligence, I think is very, very important in this case.
03:09:06 And I want to throw out a new book by Doug Horne, the McCullum memorandum, the story of Washington DC in 1940 and 41.
03:09:16 And it goes into the Japanese and the German intercepts in the in the magic aspect and the signal intelligence that that was brought in at that particular time, that is now being brought out of the, I’m going to say the National Archives, but I’m not sure if it’s military or if it’s a British MI6, but it does have a lens of credence to what is going to be developed from about 1940 on and then brought to America under what would we would call the National Security Agency.
03:09:55 So I think that I think there’s a big gap there.
03:09:58 But that gap is, is opening up little by little as we get into the research of these documentations.
03:10:06 And your work in that particular area, about Oswald and everything down in Dallas.
03:10:13 It just opened up a whole new area for us to do further research.
03:10:16 And I thank you very much for giving us that presentation.
03:10:20« Well, thank you, Casey I appreciate it.
03:10:22 And a lot of the thanks I really feel, you know, I’m standing on the shoulders of so many people like Harold Weisberg you know, like people like yourself, who have been doing this for decades.
03:10:33 And we forget sometimes about all the good research that’s going before us.
03:10:38 And that’s why I think it’s really helpful.
03:10:42 What you all are doing here in in such a magnificent way. It enables us to have file drawers, you know, for all these different subjects, and enables us to pass on our best, you know, chronologies and PowerPoints, without having to, you know, pay hundreds of dollars to other organizations to get them and then have permission to use them.
03:11:07 I mean, I’m a big fan of Deborah Conway, for example, I love what she does.
03:11:10 But you know, I’m always asking her, you know, I hope the day comes where you can put all the researchers work, you know, on YouTube.
03:11:18 Because we’ve done the work, you know, but we don’t know where to find it a lot of the time.
03:11:24 And file drawers like, you know what, this offers the Zoom context.
03:11:29 It’s more powerful, I think than, you know, in, in many ways, than a live presentation.
03:11:33 It doesn’t replace a live presentation, but in some ways, it’s more valuable.
03:11:38 Because you can see the documents if you’re a reader, you know. If you’re another person, you might want to press the flesh with your fellow researchers, which is also you know, super important.
03:11:50« Well, Bill, I think we’re gonna, I’ve got one last question here.
03:11:54 Then I think we’re gonna close with the Q&A.
03:11:57 And then we’ll have closing, not closing arguments, but closing discussion.
03:12:01 This one is also from Mr. Malkov. Jim Garrison said he felt maybe 30 or so people would have been involved in the assassination.
03:12:12 Would you care to give an updated guess on this number? Or is it an unknown? How many people do you think might be involved in the assassination? ballpark?
« Well, I always like that number only because, you know, you know, it’s, it makes sense.
03:12:26 I’m not, I’m not a military guy.
03:12:29 So I really think you know, people like Casey or Brian, or you know, any John Newman, any number of good military people, you know, would be better qualified to answer that than myself, but you need a certain network between Washington and Dallas, that’s for sure.
03:12:51« Okay.
03:12:54 Well, also, I think that’s going to bring, I think that’s going to bring our evening and our Spotlight Series with Bill Simpich our special guest to a close tonight.
03:13:03 I do want to remind everybody that’s still in attendance looks like about 38 of us in here.
03:13:07 That if you visit projectjfk.com, click on the Events tab and scroll down, you will find the replay of what was discussed tonight, you’ll also see it on our Project JFK YouTube channel.
03:13:21 If you’re not subscribed to either the website or to our YouTube channel, please subscribe.
03:13:27 Hit the thumbs up button on the videos that you watch.
03:13:29 That helps us out by knowing who’s paying attention, who’s watching and who’s enjoying what we’re doing.
03:13:35 The documents, virtual handouts are on the Events tab.
03:13:41 Please feel free to download those go over the information that that Bill touched on tonight.
03:13:47 Also see some of the things that we didn’t have time to discuss.
03:13:51 But it’s been a very exciting three hours, three plus hours with our special guest Bill Simpich.
03:13:58 And on behalf of Casey Quinlan. and Brian Edwards myself, I’d like to thank everybody in attendance, especially Bill for speaking this evening.
03:14:07 And if you visit projectjfk.com on the homepage, we do have a PayPal donate button.
03:14:12 So if you enjoy what we’re doing, and you want to keep, keep seeing what we’re bringing out to you guys, you know, click on there and you know, donate to the cause and, you know, keep us keep the lights on for us. And with that, you know, I also want to let everybody know we talked at the very beginning.
03:14:30 The next journey meeting is going to be August 21st between 1 and 3. That’s our regular journey meeting and then August 25th. Make sure that you click on the links to go to the Eventbrite tab, get your free e-tickets, because on August 25th is going to be Professor David Denton in a Spotlight Series, and he’s always got great information.
03:14:53 So I want to make sure that we get a good audience for him as well.
03:14:57 So, with that Bill, would you like to add anything to that?
« Well, I really feel I really feel passionately that we can bring this matter to a historical resolution more quickly than most people think.
03:15:16 And, I, it takes a certain amount of humility.
03:15:21 But by saying, we don’t know everything, we’re probably not gonna know who the shooters were.
03:15:25 But when you put the documents together, when you put the videotapes together, you know, it’s happened in many other cold cases, you know, more documents pop up.
03:15:36 And the pattern emerges just like a dinosaur.
03:15:41 You know, a skeleton emerges.
03:15:42 You know, it’s all desiccated.
03:15:45 But it’s clear, it’s a dinosaur.
03:15:48 And it can’t be anything else.
03:15:50 There’s a great picture with, I think it’s somewhere in Washington washing with a dinosaur wearing a COVID mask.
03:15:59 That I just love.
03:16:03 And it just reminds me that, you know, the world works in mysterious ways.
03:16:07 And we can we actually have the information. The difficulty is collating it. Knowing what is accurate and what’s not accurate, what’s disinformation, what’s real information.
03:16:20 And that’s where the humility part comes in.
03:16:24 You know, we don’t have to agree on two Oswalds. I’m not a two Oswald guy.
03:16:26 But I love what John Armstrong brought me in the last week.
03:16:30 Yeah, it was like, really good thinking, really important pictures.
03:16:35 And, you know, we if we can bridge our differences about research, and work in small groups, that’s how we get things done.
03:16:43 So it’s and project JFK to me is an exemplar of that. The model of sharing information and you know and letting everybody have a turn at the podium.
03:16:56 So thank you.
03:16:56« Thank you very much, Bill.
03:16:59 And now with that, I’m going to bring our spotlight
« David
« Go ahead.
03:17:03« Hey, it’s Brooks.
03:17:03« Go ahead Brooks.
03:17:07« I just want to make one closing comment Bill talked a lot tonight about the Klan. How many of these men were active in the Klan, and about lynchings that took place historically in Dallas, but there’s an area as soon as you go into the triple underpass immediately on your right.
03:17:24 It’s known as Martyrs Park.
03:17:24 And three black men were hung there in 1860.
03:17:31 And there was a big effort within Dallas to try to get a memorial.
03:17:36 And I think they did get a historical mark or a plaque one up about two years ago there.
03:17:41 That was the first time I ever heard of it.
03:17:44 But it’s, it’s strange
03:17:47 when we consider the entire picture what’s going on here that those three men were hung so close to the site where Kennedy was killed.
03:17:56« Yeah and especially with, you know, his push for the civil rights, civil rights act.
03:18:05 Yeah, that it definitely
03:18:06 there’s a parallel there
03:18:09 I guess.
03:18:09« If you Google it, martyrs Park Memorial, you can find it on the internet, but I think it was
03:18:16 2019.
03:18:18 It might even been early last year because of the pandemic and what and. I don’t think it got a lot of coverage.
03:18:25 But anyway, there is a plaque there now, Memorial
« Brooks, thank you for that.
03:18:29 That’s a powerful story and something to think about.
03:18:32« All right, well, with that,
03:18:37 I guess we will bring our Spotlight Series with Bill Simpich to a close and I want to thank again, everybody for attending.
03:18:44 And we look forward to seeing you on the 21st of August.
03:18:49 And if you and if you get a chance to attend the 25th Spotlight Series.
03:18:54 I know it’s going to be some great stuff.
03:18:56 I know that Professor Denton’s been working on it for quite some time.
03:19:00 And it’s new stuff that’s gonna be stuff he’s talking about.
03:19:04 So you know, definitely keep following us and, you know, visit us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, our website at projectjfk.com and our YouTube channel project JFK.
03:19:17 And like I say, thank you very much for everybody attending tonight.
Copyright © Bill Simpich. All rights reserved.